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gave misinformation to members on such occasions, deserved censure. He understood the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) to say, that the bon. member (Mr. Scott) had not employed the public money for one moment. He was glad to hear it, and if so, he must have been greatly misinformed.

ever. He was glad the subject had been made to him; which statement; if correct, brought forward, because it would afford demanded of him this conduct as a member that hon. member an opportunity of making of that house; if the statement was incor the whole case clear and public. rect, he was imposed upon, and improperly The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he made the instrument of bringing forward was desirous the papers moved for by the an unnecessary enquiry, in which event he hon. and learned gent. should be laid be- should be among the foremost to bring his fore the house, but he could not help re-informant before the house, for the purpose marking the manner in which this motion of receiving its censure; for those who was made. The hon. and learned gent. gave notice last night he should make this motion, by stating that it was applicable to the connection between government and Mr. Claude Scott, but he might have given an intimation of the ground of his motion, that those who wished to take a share in the discussion might be acquainted with the nature of the transaction, as it was intended to be brought forward; but here was a matter of ten years standing brought forward without any such intimation, when gentlemen might not have the subject fresh in their memory. He was glad to observe, however, that what had been hinted at by the hon. mover, as to the cause of his motion, was likely to turn out to be totally unfounded.

Mr. For thought the conduct of his hon. and learned friend in not giving a more descriptive notice perfectly correct, and such as he would have observed himself in a similar situation, for had he made a speech on giving his notice of the motion, it would have been irregular in any other member to answer that speech, however desirable it might be by such member that the speech should be answered. This complaint, therefore, of a want of a further intimation of the hon. mover, was properly a complaint that he had not been irregular. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he did not wish that a speech might precede the notice, but the general grounds of it would have been so far from being irregular that it would have only been confornable to custom in cases of this nature.

Mr. Grey maintained, that ample information of the nature of this motion had been detailed in the notice, as entered in the order book, which he read.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he had not seen the book, which appeared to contain sufficient notice.

Mr. Serjeant Best justified himself as to the distinctness with which he gave notice of this motion, as also for the motive with which he brought the subject forward; it was to lay the foundation of an Enquiry. He did this on a statement which was

Mr. Rose said, he never was so absurd as to have said the hon. member never employed the public money in his hands for a moment, for it would have been a thing impossible for any man connected. with government in a contract to have that said of him; all he said was, that he had not kept the public money for any considerable time.

Mr. Serjeant Best said, a month.

Mr. Rose said he believed not a month, or any thing like a month; but he spoke only from the best recollection he had on a subject which was ten years old; the impression of that recollection was, that the conduct of the hon. member (Mr. Scott) was perfectly correct and honourable. He knew very little more of that hon. member, beyond that contract with government, than the hon. and learned gent, did.―The question was then put and carried, “that there be laid before the house an account of such sales, delivered by Claude Scott, esq. to government, and an account when the produce of such sales were paid to government; also, that there be laid before the house a copy of an account of corn' and flour, sold by the said C. Scott, esq. to government, between the year 1795, and 1800, and all monies paid by him on account of such sales; which were all ordered."

[IRISH LOAN.] The house having resolv editself into a committee of ways and means,

Mr. Foster said, he should only intrude upon the attention of the committee for a few minutes. It would be recollected, that early in the present session he had stated, that a loan of 1,000,000l. would be proposed to be contracted for in Ireland for the service of that country; he had also stated, that there was a sum of $00,000l.

1001. Long annuities.....£5 00

due upon treasury bills, respecting which 48, and on further representation, to 48. he expressed a wish to reserve all discus- This offer had been received by the lords sion till a future day. He had now to state of the treasury in Ireland, subject to his to the committee, that he had proposed to approbation. He would shew by the letter I raise a loan of 1,800,000l. in Ireland. of the bidders themselves, that they did not Offers had been made there, which were not consider any engagement made with them. accepted: offers were then made in this The letter stated, that they would abide country for the loan, which he had felt it by their offer, if they were indemnified for his duty to accept; and it was the contract any depression that may take place in the so made, that he had now the honour to stocks here before the return of the express submit to the committee. The terms of with his answer. This offer was made in the loan were, Dublin on Monday the 16th. The letter of Messrs. Bogle, French, Burrows, and Canning, was answered by him by an express, which arrived in Dublin on the Sunday following, stating, that their offer could not be accepted. There was not in their letter, nor in any one of the papers, one word that went to shew he was bound. The bidders merely said, they would abide by their offer if indemnified against possible depression. Now they complained, and said they had a right, merely because they were not allowed the 13 per cent. bonus they had carved out for themselves. He trusted this explanation would set his conduct in a fair light.

241. in the 5 per cents.. 4 0 making together 61. 4s. the annual charge for the loan; but in addition to this there was 4s. 10d. for the sinking fund on the 5 per cents. and 8s.4d. on the long annuities, making altogether a sum of 61. 17s. 2d. per cent. He trusted the committee would not consider the terms of the loan as disadvantageous to the public, when it was stated, that for the loan of two millions and a half, which was raised in the early part of the session for Ireland, the annual charge amounted to 61. 17s. 7d. The latter loan was not only made upon terms more favourable to the public, but it had this further advantage, that a great part of it was in annuities, whereas the other created a permanent debt. He would now, with the permission of the committee, say a few words upon the reports which were circulated respecting the rejection of the offers made in Ireland for this loan. The offers made by the persons who wished to contract for the loan in Ireland were as follows: Annual charge to the nation. 100, 3 per cent. stock £3 10 48, 5 per cent. ditto 2 8 148, Sinking Fund, 1 per cent. 1 9 7

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He had already stated, that the annual charge on the present loan was 61. 17s. 2d. so that there was an actual saving of 10s. 5d. per cent. The difference also on the capital of the debt created would be immense. If the offers made in Ireland had been accepted, the subscribers would have had a bonus of no less than 13 per cent. and therefore it was not surprising, that where the advantage to them was so great, they wished to have their offer considered as a contract. He would now explain to the house the whole of the transaction, as far as related to the offers made in Ireland. The first offer made there was for 49, 5 per cents.; this being represented as unreasonably high, it was reduced to

Sir J. Newport expressed himself extremely happy to hear the right hon. gent. give so truly satisfactory an account of this transaction. He had heard of the rumours that had been alluded to, but could not believe them, and it gave him the greatest pleasure to hear them so completely done away. He highly approved the loan having been made in England in preference to Ireland, because it could not fail to be eventually truly advantageous to that part of the empire. In a poor country like Ireland the great object should always be to bring capital into it. Here would, therefore, be nearly 2 millions of capital sent thither, and that Irish capital, which, if taken as a loan, would be locked up for that purpose, might now be much more beneficially employed by being vested in trade, in the promoting and encouraging manufactures, in the improvement of agriculture, and in many other modes which that part of the kingdom is deficient in at present, and to render which most flourishing and prosperous, capital is only wanted. He allowed, there were some things attending this mode of raising money by loans, which he did not altogether approve, such as being connected with a sinking fund, and other inconveniences; but it was but fair and right to consider every matter of this kind in all its bearings, and to put up with the bitters, for the sake of enjoying the

the interests of those persons affected by the bill, as far as the same could be done without trenching on those principles, and on that system, upon which the institutions were hitherto introduced. The important consideration of a due connection between the properties of the laity and the ecclesiastical establishments of the country,

sweets. Upon the whole, he thought the right hon. gent. had conducted the business in a manner highly creditable to himself, and very advantageously to the country, and it was with infinite satisfaction he gave his approbation to it. The resolutions were then read and agreed to; the house resumed, and the report ordered to be received on Monday.-Adjourned.made also a part of the present subject.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, April 29.

How far giving an unlimited power to the universities to acquire advowsons, would operate with respect to that consideration, [MINUTES.] The earl of Oxford was was inatter for serious discussion. He resworn and took his seat.-Counsel were fur-peated, no practical inconvenience had hiHe was ther heard relative to the Scotch Appeal, therto been proved to exist. Cathcart, bart. v. the earl of Cassilis, viz. against conferring an unlimited power on Mr. H. Erskine in continuation on the the universities, though, under what had part of the respondent.-The bills upon been stated, he had no objection to open the door wider, and to extend the proporthe table were respectively forwarded. [UNIVERSITIES ADVOWSON BILL.] The tion of the number of livings from one order of the day being read for their lord-half to three-fourths of the number of felships going into a committee on this bill, lows in the respective colleges. Nor did Lord Sidmouth rose for the purpose of he object to other regulations being made, opposing the proceeding. It was with pain upon the same principle, such as augmenthe differed, and on topics of such pecu-ing the value of the present livings, &c.; liar importance as those involved in the but he was hostile to all innovations, measure in question, from the reverend which did not proveably proceed upon and learned prelate who brought forward sure and certain grounds. A more liberal the bill. It was said, it would be a boon provision made for those meritorious perto the universities. No person could pos- sons, could, he thought, be obtained withsibly have a greater respect for these very out having recourse to a sweeping repeal useful, learned, and respectable bodies, of all limitation whatever. Adverting to the than himself; yet he conceived that the present state of church livings in general, bill before the house would operate rather and the duties of parochial ministers, his as a boon to individuals belonging to those lordship thought the augmentation of the corporations, than to the institutions them- value of small livings would be highly be selves. Great stress was laid upon the in-neficial, as well as the erection of more conveniences produced by the restrictions churches in the populous parts of the counwhich the bill was intended to remove, but try, and in great towns, in many parts of be believed no proof whatever was brought the metropolis, in particular. With reforward of any practical inconvenience spect to the subject of the bill in question, he having taken place. The restriction had contended their lordships had by no means continued for more than half a century. sufficient information to proceed upon. It was enacted at the instance of that pro-He saw no immediate necessity for profound lawyer and venerable magistrate, lord ceeding with the measure. Time, certainly, Hardwicke, who, no doubt, had thoroughly considered the subject before he proposed the restraining clause. In the former debate on the subject, it was also said, the succession to the livings was at present too slow for the beneficial purposes of the institution; but of this no proof was brought forward, and, as the case stood, he was entitled to contend, were the restriction removed, the succession would be too rapid. He was perfectly aware of the importance of the subject to which these conderations referred, and no one could be more willing to promote the comforts and VOL. IV.

should be given for further enquiry. If, however, it should be the general sense of the house, that the bill shall speedily be committed, he hoped what he had suggested, in the way of detailed regulation, would be seriously considered by their lordships; such as, that the extent of the increased proportion of livings should not be suffered to exceed three-fourths, and the smaller livings augmented. Under his present views of the question, what he should propose was, that the bill should be postponed until next session, for the purposes he had mentioned. He would, 2 G

ties. He had not the least apprehension on the score of too rapid a succession. And, convinced as he felt of the beneficial tendency of the measure, he should support the original motion.

therefore, propose to amend the question regularly before the house, by omitting the word " now," and inserting this day 3 months."-On the question being put, The Bishop of Orford rose, and argued generally in support of the measure. He Lord Auckland, though he professed him. contended that the proportion in which the self not unfriendly to the bill, yet was of restraint stood, by the existing law, was opinion that their lordships had not suffi fallacious in the extreme. The knowledge cicnt information to go upon: a practica! which their lordships had of the subject inconvenience was a matter capable of was sufficient for them to proceed upon. proof; let that be brought forward, and There was nothing in the bill, to interfere the amount and respective value of the livwith the augmentation of the value of the ings in the hands of the different colleges smaller livings; the erection of churches, or should also be known. The funds of the a more suitable pension for the officiating universities may also be matter of proper clergy. With respect to the idea, that no consideration, for it was important to know practical inconvenience had hitherto re- how far they had the means of providing, sulted from the restraint; there was no ne-which they themselves held forth as a re cessity of direct proof of it before themedy for the alleged grievance: there house; it was every day, and injuriously was no evidence whatever on these heads felt. An appeal to the colleges would soon before the house. convince on that head, particularly that of which the noble and learned lord was a member; abundant proofs of that could be found. He must, therefore, deprecate any further postponement of the discussion.

The Bishop of Oxford shortly observed; he was in possession of some detailed information on those heads, did noble lords deem it necessary.

ever, be desirable to go into a committee on the bill, as that detailed mode of discussion may at least give them an idea of the precise nature of the necessary infor mation.

Lord Auckland resumed. He contended for the propriety of having an account of The Archbishop of Canterbury observed, the number and value of livings in the gift that he conceived the principal objections of the different colleges, as some of those it of the noble viscount to the bill, to be, might be desirable to augment. The state first, an apprehension, that, were the ex-of their respective funds should also be isting restraint removed, the succession to known. One general rule could not prothe university livings would be too rapid;perly be laid down for the whole. The and, secondly, that it would tend to de-means of some colleges for providing for prive the laity of too great a degree of its members may be more than sufficient; that portion of patronage, which he con-of others, they may be inadequate. It ceived to be at present so beneficially vest-was a subject on which they should not ed in them. With respect to the first ob-proceed to legislate blindly. It may, how jection, his grace observed, he conceived the state of the funds of the universities would operate as a sufficient check to any thing which might be feared, if too rapid. With respect to the present state of the patronage of ecclesiastical livings, he should Lord Grenville in some degree agreed be extremely sorry to see it taken away with the noble lord who spoke last, in from numbers of those who at present en-deeming that the house was not possessed joyed it, and who so beneficially dispensed of sufficient information: he thought it, it, particularly members of that noble however, better to proceed with the bill, house. But there was another description and endeavour to get the necessary inforof patronage, which, they must all feel,mation, than to postpone the measure to had a very different tendency. He alluded an indefinite period, without the least certo that, which was afloat in the market, tainty of procuring the necessary informa and every day bought and sold under cir- tion. It would be preferable to go into cumstances injurious to the establishment of the committee, to ascertain the precise nathe church, the interests of religion, and, [ture of the information wanted, and adopt he believed, against the laws of the realm; measures to obtain it. The measure before the patronage of such persons might easily the house was, he contended, brought for be placed in better hands, and in none more ward on adequate parliamentary grounds. advantageously than those of the universi-The real merits of the bill, as it then stood,

resolved into this question, did there now people, and what was the consequence? exist sufficient grounds for continuing the these persons either went to no church at restriction? With respect to the apprehen- all, or were constrained to frequent places sion of a rapid succession, he thought those of worship different from those of the persons who so worthily presided in the established religion. He trusted these different colleges would take care to pre-matters would be seriously considered by vent that; but he was inclined, upon the the legislature, and taken up at some fuwhole, to credit the assertion that the pre- ture period, and also the consideration of sent succession to the college livings was the number of small and inadequate livings, too slow, and in considering this part of and the impracticability of clerical resithe subject, the peculiarly strong claims of dence in many of these. those who were to be ameliorated by the The Bishop of St. Asaph contended, that bill, should be attended to. The question every thing that was advanced, were reaunder consideration was not of figures or sons for going into a committee on the bill; of numerical calculation, but of reason-they were in possession of adequate inforing, feeling, and presumption. With re-mation, in order to proceed with the bill; spect to that salutary and beneficial con- and the legislature, when it originally laid nection which subsisted between the pro- on the restriction, was not informed, as his perty of the laity, and the religious estab-noble friend opposite contended the house lishments of the country, did he perceive should have been, or the proportion of the the least tendency in the bill to militate against the measure; but with a most reverend prelate, he thought it would have a contrary tendency. He had no fears on that head, for even did too great an accumulation of advowsous, or too rapid a succession ensue, the legislature night hereafter interpose and check it, as it had The Lord Chancellor agreed with a noble already done. Many of the arguments of baron (Grenville), that the question before a noble viscount, he contended, operated them was rather one of general reasoning, for, instead of against going into a com- than proceeding upon particular informamittee. The restriction, at present, he tion. The original restriction did not apargued, operated unjustly, it referred pear founded on the state of the respective merely to the number of the advowsons, colleges, or the proportion would be very without in the least considering their re- different. In advancing this, he meant not spective value. This part of an ameliora- the slightest reflection on the name of that tion of the present system could but be great and venerable character who proconsidered in a committee, in favour of posed it, whose name would be rememberwhich proceeding, every thing advanced ined as long as the law of England continued argument, that night, decidedly tended. to be known. That his position was well Lord Sidmouth explained, that what he founded, would clearly appear on comparhad said was, that there was no proofing the allotted number of livings, viz. one brought forward of the succession being half of that of the fellows of colleges in the too slow. universities, with the actual number of per

numbers allotted would be very different; he had no fears of too rapid a succession ever taking place; the colleges had not the means of affording an opportunity for that; but, he observed, that the patronage of the universities was always honourably and be neficially exercised.

Lord Auckland contended that where a sous in each college capable of being so begrievance was alleged, it should be estab-neficed. Some of these (referring, for exlished in proof; the case in the present in-ample, to that which he had the honour to stance was one of evidence and fact, an belong) had the entire number of their feladequate proof ought to be given. lows ecclesiastics, whereas others had not

The Bishop of London argued in favour half their number clerical men. How, of the measure, and urged the consideration therefore, could the allotted proportion of of such a bill as the present in a committee, one moiety apply equally or justly to both? as particularly necessary. Adverting to He agreed with the observations of the the general state of parochial establish-rev. prelates, on the scandalous traffic for ments; he lamented there were so few parish churches in the western parts of the metropolis. Most of the chapels of ease were private property, and afforded no accommodation for the lower orders of the

church preferments, the extent and tendency of which did not seem to have been fuly perceived by the illustrious author of the restriction, and which the noble and learned lord strongly reprobated as of the most

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