HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, April 29.

[MINUTES.] Mr. Calcraft presented a

pernicious tendency. He had no fears of straint in question.-The house then, after too rapid a succession, or that through the negativing the proposition of lord Sidoperation of the bill, the patronage of the mouth, resolved into a committee on the laity would be improperly trenched upon. bill, and lord Walsingham having taken Lord Ellenborough observed, as the ge- the chair, the preamble was postponed, neral sense of their lordships appeared to and the enacting clause entered into pro be for going into a committee, he should formá. It being settled between their lorddetain them very shortly. He was of opi-ships across the table that progress should nion that it would be expedient to set be reported, and leave asked to sit again; some limitation to the acquisition of ad- which being done, the committee was divowsons in such cases as the present. The rected to sit again on Wednesday,—Adhouse should consider that the corporations journed. in question were as trustees who purchased for their own benefit; that they were not only donors but donees; there obviously therefore existed reasons for some restraint, which did not exist in other corporations. He must join with the noble lords and re-petition from upwards of 1000 inhabitants verend prelates who reprobated that scan of the parish of St. Pancras against the bill dalous traffic in church preferments so for- for the erection of a workhouse, and some cibly alluded to. He was fully aware how parochial regulations in that place. Orgreatly preferable it would be to see such dered to lie on the table.—Mr. Williams, patronage vested in the universities; but from the commissioners of naval enquiry, even with reference to purchases, even from presented at the bar the correspondence these quarters, he conceived, considering with the treasurer of the navy, which was the possibility of abuse, that some degree ordered on a preceding day. The papers of restraint would even then be necessary. were ordered to be laid on the table, and They should endeavour to find some ceron the motion of sir R. Buxton, it was tain ratio for apportioning the number of ordered that they should be printed.-Mr. livings to that of the fellows of the respec-Johnstone, from the office of the chief setive colleges, or rather of those who are cretary of Ireland, presented copies of the capable of being beneficed, and therefore contracts which had been entered into for some words should be introduced to express that provision in the bill, as "such persons as are elected, or are capable of being elected."

the purchase of houses or ground for the scite of the Roman catholic seminary. Ordered to be laid on the table.-Mr. Parnell presented statements of the public expenThe Bishop of Orford in reply, observed, diture in the Irish chancellor of the exthat no fears need be entertained of too chequer's office, which were also ordered great an accumulation of patronage on the to be laid on the table.—Mr. H. Thornton part of the universities, even were that gave notice that, in consequence of the likely to take place, as parliament would resignation of sir Francis Burdett, he would, always have it in their power to check the to-inorrow, move that the petition against vicious excess; nay, to check the evil in Mr. Mainwaring be discharged.-Mr. Creethe bud. He entered into some calcula-vy rose for the purpose of putting a questions as to the number of livings vested in tion to his majesty's ministers. Three different bodies. Of these, we understood weeks shall have elapsed to-morrow since the reverend prelate to say, that a less the resignation of lord Melville, and yet number than 700 were at the disposal of no successor had been appointed. He the universities, and many of these of small wished to know who was to succeed to value, out of an aggregate of upwards of that important office, as under all the cirten thousand livings. cumstances of the country, and considerThe Duke of Norfolk said, that if the ing the forward state of the enemy's fleets, bill were agreed to by the committee, with-it was extremely desirable that a person out some limitation or degree of restraint should be appointed, adequate to the urintroduced, he would certainly oppose it gency of the times, and arduous duties of in some future stage. He conceived that that high office. The chancellor of the the same reasons continued to operate exchequer had no difficulty in answering which induced the legislature, in its wis- the hon. gentleman's question: the appointdom, in the year 1736, to provide the re-ment had taken place, and would be men

tioned in the Gazette of to-morrow; and the notice referred to some papers relative the successor to that noble lord was one to the eleventh report; in fact, that it was who fully answered the description of the a general notice. He thought the hon. hon. gent. and would be satisfactory to the baronet should have stated what his object wishes of the nation. (After having sat was. down, the right hon. gent. mentioned the name of sir Charles Middleton.)

[PAPERS RELATING TO THE ELEVENTH NAVAL REPORT.] Sir A. S. Hamond rose to give notice that he should move, to-morrow, for further papers respecting the Eleventh Report of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry.

The Speaker remarked, that there was no question before the house on which it could come to any ultimate decision.

Mr. Tierney said, the hon. baronet ought to apprize the house of the object of the motion he intended to bring forward. He supposed the documents he meant to move for, were intended as the medium of at tacking a noble lord. If so, it was necessary that every thing connected with the immediate object of the motion should be before the house.

Mr. Grey rose to take notice, that the hon. comptroller of the navy had, on a day last week, given notice of a motion connected with the Eleventh Report of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry. He Sir A. S. Hamond appealed to the wished to know what object the hon. ba- house, that in their recollection, an hon. ronet had in view, in requiring additional member opposite (Mr. Kinnaird) had papers on the subject of that report. The brought forward a similar motion, under hon. baronet had given a notice of a simi- similar circumstances. On that hon. lar nature on a former night without stat-member's motion, papers of a nature ing his object, and on the next day he had parallel to those he had moved for, were come down to the house before the usual ordered, and not a single objection was hour, and had moved for a letter from him- started. self to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, Mr. Grey professed his ignorance of the together with certain inclosures. It was circumstance to which the hon. baronet impossible to know what the hon. baronet alluded. As far as his own recollection proposed to himself by the production of extended, the motion of his hon. friend was such documents. What had the house to not brought forward without a specific nodo with his letter to the commissioners? tice. Every member, indeed, knew to If he had any observations or comment to what end it was directed. Here, on the make upon it, as a member of parliament, contrary, it was perfectly understood that it was open to him to avail himself of an no business of a public nature was to be opportunity of doing so. The proceeding done till after the ballot was formed, the was altogether so extraordinary and irre- hon. baronet introduced his motion in the gular, that he (Mr. Grey) was of opinion absence of all those who might be supposthat the former notice and motion should ed most anxious to defend the character be expunged, and that the hon. baronet of the noble lord, against any attack which should distinctly state what his object was, might be brought against his public con Sir A.S. Hamond said, that upon the oc-duct. He himself had remained to a late casion alluded to, he had taken no advantage of the house. It was near five o'clock when he made his motion, and he had given full notice of the purpose for which he made it. He had stated that the documents were respecting the evidence given on the eleventh report before the naval commissioners. The house was then as full as it was at present, and he was not aware of having been informal or out of order.

hour in expectation of the motion being brought forward, and he was at last astonished to find, that the hon. baronet had brought forward the motion at a time when not one of the noble lord's friends were at all apprized of his intentions. They knew nothing at all of the nature of the papers to be moved for. They were obliged to be satisfied with the simple explanation, that they were papers connected with the Eleventh Report of the Naval CommisMr. Tierney observed, that on the day sioners. In fairness to the character of of the hon. baronet's motion, it was un- his noble friend, some opportunity should derstood that a ballot for a select commit-have been given to move for the productee was to take place at four o'clock. He tion of other papers, by which these allecame down anxious to know the nature of gations might have been disproved. All the motion, as all he understood was, that the information, however, which it was

judged necessary by the hon. baronet to ing for such papers as were necessary to convey to the house, was, that it was a his vindication? He believed it would turn collection of documents relative to the out that the document which had been eleventh report. This, surely, was nothing moved for was one which the hon. bart. short of sporting with the dignity of the had had no opportunity to bring forward. house, as well as the character of his noble The hon. baronet had intimated to the friend. Fortunate, indeed it was, that his commissioners that their report would character was far above all suspicion, so convey to the world an erroneous statethat even the partial production of these ment. They declined receiving his statepapers could not injure him in the estima-ment. If then the 11th report reflected on tion of the public. To move for papers, the conduct of the hon, baronet, was his and not to explain to what object they statement in explanation to be rejected, be were to be applied, was, he would ever cause it might convey an imputation against contend, equally inexpedient and objec-a noble lord, whom some persons thought tionable. A right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. fit to consider above all enquiry? He was Pitt) had attacked an hon. and learned not desirous of entering into a discussion friend of his for not bringing forward his of the motives by which gentlemen were motion on a former evening, on a suffici-actuated in their friendship for the noble ently explicit notice-which on enquiry lord. Whatever he had thought of the turned out not to be the fact. It was as- noble lord, or now thought of hiin, be was certained that the notice of his hon, and not disposed to consent that his name learned friend was sufficiently explicit; should be brought forward to prevent the but surely no one member could now come production of a document necessary to the forward and say that the motion of the vindication of a member of the house. The hon. baronet had been intimated in terms motion was for papers materially affecting at all so specific. The house besides had the character of the person who called for here to consider what was demanded. It them. Similar papers had been produced was not a motion for the production of do- by a vote of the house; he was, therefore, cuments to establish the innocence of the at a loss to conceive why in this instance hon. baronet, which would without diffi-they should be objected to. culty be acceded to. It was a motion for Mr. Grey said, the right hon. gentleman the production of a letter containing com- (Mr. Pitt) had not advanced a word in ments on the report of the commissioners. vindication of the manner and time of the If the hon. baronet thought these comments hou. baronet's bringing forward his motion, necessary, he, as a member of the house, but simply that to deny it would be inconhad an opportunity of stating them in his sistent with the justice due to an indiviplace. It was not consistent with the dig-dual; and that, as the report reflected nity of parliament to receive them in any materially on the hon. baronet, he ought other form. It was one of the first instan- not to be precluded from moving for that ces of letters of individuals being thus at-which was necessary to his own defence. tempted to be placed before parliament, By no means. God forbid, that he should and he trusted the practice would be effectually checked. The house, it appeared to him, were called on to expunge the motion for the production of the papers in question.

be denied any paper necessary to his justification. What he complained of was, that the hon. baronet moved for documents comprising letters, without stating for what they were intended. Had he The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, it moved for specific documents, the propriewwas his earnest wish that the hon. gent.ty of granting them might have been can(hir. Grey) would give effect to his threat, vassed; but the hou. baronet had moved and move to expunge the notice, if he for a letter from himself to the admiralty, thought it was wrong; but surely he ought inclosing other documents, without any first to recollect what it was. It was for information which might enable those cona copy of the evidence of the comptroller cerned to supply the deficiency of such of the navy before the commissioners rela- papers, supposing they should be incomtive to the eleventh report. Now, when plete. He repeated that it was an unfair it was known that the eleventh report con-proceeding. In what situation would the tained comments on the conduct of the public be, if any person could, by writing person who had made the motion, was it a letter to the admiralty, get the inclosures ust that he should be shut out from mov-printed and laid before the house of com

Mr. Tierney wished the papers to be laid on the table for two or three days be

mons? Such a practice might lead to the house. Nobody knew to what these docirculation of he knew not what trash. If cuments referred. Even now he was at the letter was a justification of the hon. a loss to develope them. There were ho baronet, let it be produced in a fair and titles to them. He desired to know honourable mode. Public rumour had whether it was fair that papers so pros induced him to believe it related to an duced should be printed. attack on a noble lord; if so, his friends ought to have an opportunity of supplying any defect in the papers it contained. Afore they were printed. If they were right hon. gent. had supposed that he (Mr. printed in their present state, they might Grey) had intimated that the noble lord create an impression which supplemienwas above enquiry. He had never said so. tary documents might not be able to He had said, that the noble lord was above remove. Both the hon, baronet and the attack, and if there was any imputation | noble lord were in a situation which no against him, he challenged it. He was so man of honour could submit to. The convinced of the noble lord's integrity, hop. baronet desired that he might not be that he had no doubt any enquiry would redound to his honour..

The

condemned unheard. He (Mr. Tierney) was equally anxious that his noble friend Sir A. S. Hamond maintained, that he should not be condemned unheard. He had taken the most regular and orderly thought the better way would be to mové way in bringing forward his complaint. for a committee to consider the eleventh In the 11th report, the comptroller of the report. All he was desirous of was, that navy was particularly reflected upon. a mutilated case should not be laid before There was one part of the evidence which the public. reflected on him in a way that no person The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, of feeling could pass over. Either the there was an equal desire that justice noble lord or himself must stand in a should be done to both parties. situation in which no man of honour would wish to be placed. He had written a letter to the commissioners, to desire that he might be re-examined. After a lapse of seventeen days, he was told, that the report having been submitted to the three branches of the legislature, his request could not be complied with. He was at the head of an inferior board, and it was material to him to prove that he was not the person alluded to in the eleventh report. He had written a letter to that effect to the commissioners of the admiralty, and had desired them to look over the documents, to convince themselves he had acted right. These were the papers he had moved for. The house was full at the time, and if he had done it five minutes too early, he had no intention to take the house by surprize.

question was, whether the house would put the hon. baronet in a situation of having hostile evidence adduced against him, lest the documents in his vindication might possibly reflect on another person. No doubt, the comptroller of the navy ought to have the full benefit of these papers; they were calculated to elucidate points relative to the hon. baronet's justi“ fication. An hon. gent. had observed, that it was competent to move for a committee. Was it not also competent to any. one to move for a vote of censure against the hon. baronet upon the report? It was not unusual in the course of debate for gentlemen to form different views of a subject, and even when notice had been given of a particular motion, it had been discovered in a few hours that the motion which before was considered the best, Mr. W. Dickenson presented at the bar would prove the worst that could be ad " a copy of the letter of the comptroller of opted. He concluded by moving that the navy to the commissioners of the ad-the papers should be read.

miralty, dated April 22, 1805, relative to Mr. For observed, that the case before the evidence contained in the eleventh report of the commissioners of naval enquiry, together with its inclosures." On the motion that the papers do lie on the table, it appearing that the inclosures had no titles,

Mr. Grey doubted whether this was such a proceeding as ought to satisfy the

the house was involved in intricacy. The whole seemed to have arisen from an irregularity the most strange and extraordinary that ever crept into the proceedings of that house of parliament. The hon. baronet thought, that his character being attacked by the eleventh report, it was his business to move for certain documents,

quiry, but it was above all suspicion that could be thrown upon it without enquiry. Now the inclosures were produced, the house did not know what they were; the clerk could not read them, because they

tles of these documents. He regretted that the house should have unnecessarily got into so difficult a state of proceeding.

Mr. W. Dickenson, jun. did not conceive there was any impropriety or irrregularity in the proceeding. One of the papers was a letter from sir A. S. Hamond; the other, a letter from Mr. Tucker: they were both under similar circumstances.

Mr. George Ponsonby was of opinion that the papers ought not to be read, as they could not be read in the ordinary way, having no titles. The hon. baronet had not specified what any one of the papers was, but had stated that they would shew the house he was at issue with lord St. Vincent, and that one or the other must stand in a situation in which no man of honour would wish to stand. The letter, therefore, did not contain a defence of the hon. baronet, but a new and distinct crimination of lord St. Vincent. He was bound then to state the nature of the documents, that lord St. Vincent's friends might move for other papers, if necessary,

Nothing could be more right. But was rited. His character was not above enit right to conceal any thing? Instead of referring to the documents A, B, or C, the hon. baronet referred them all to the inclosures of a certain letter. The house should consider the difference between evidence and comment. If the hon. ba-had no titles. He wished to have the tironet had not the documents necessary to his defence, certainly it would be unfair; but if his comment on them had been omitted, it would have been competent in him to have made it, as a member of parliament, in his place. If he had stated what the inclosures were, all this difficulty would have been avoided. Had he pointed them out by specific titles, it would have been competent to any gentleman to have this or that by itself, which may mislead the house, and therefore it will be necessary to move for some other papers. It had been stated, that the papers had been moved for at a certain time of the day-a very fit time, he granted, to move for such documents. No man could say that any observation in the hon. baronet's power to make personally, could be more availing in writing. It was important to have the whole of the documents before the public; but to have the comment without the text, was not that state of the business which the house of commons ought to be satisfied with. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had observed, that The Attorney General observed, that the house had seen changes on a former if any other person but lord St. Vincent day, with respect to certain motions of were the object of the motion, no oban hon. friend of his (Mr. Whitbread).jection would be made to laying the doThe fact was, that his hon. friend, so far cuments on the table. But was there not from having abandoned his notice, had a report on the table charging the hon. babeen driven out of it by the majority of ronet with having omitted to have informthe house. He wished to know whether ed the first lord of the admiralty of certhere was any thing deserving reproach, tain important transactions? He had lookor that could reflect on the understanding ed into the introductory letter since the or sedateness of his hon. friend, by the commencement of the discussion, by which course he had adopted. Whoever wit-it appeared that the hon. baronet, when nessed the debate of that day, and saw the he found that his conduct had been reeagerness with which every one of the flected on by the 11th report, had tenderhon. gent.'s friends wished to screen the ed to be re-examined, which the cominisdelinquents, could not but allow this was sioners had, no doubt on sufficient grounds, a sufficient reason for his hon. friend's refused. The hon. bart. had then adabandoning his motion. He was of opi-dressed himself to the admiralty, inclosing nion it would be more dignified and con- the documents. In consequence of which sistent, not to have these papers printed they were no longer in his possession, and till others connected with them could be that had been the cause of his moving for also produced. Every one was aware that the letter and its inclosures. As to the there was no man in the country above en-observation of the learned gent. that this quiry; but such was the character of lord was a fresh and distinct charge against the St. Vincent, that if the letter accused him, noble lord, was not there already upon the general and just opinion of mankind the table a charge against the hon. bawould be, that the imputation was unme-ronet? Was there no hardship in that?