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might be equally applied to every other | fused them, the policy of our ministers is to species of appeal for redress of grievances. defeat the toleration allowed by law, and But instead of refusing what the catholics till political power was added, the catholics now ask, it was a policy imposed on us by could never maintain what had been connecessity, to conciliate them by a measure ceded to them, or rise above the degradation that would unite so large a portion of the in which they had been held. Now was empire zealously in its defence. It was the time to shew the catholics that they stated against the petitioners, however, that could expect nothing from catholic powers, they wished to be relieved from a test which so advantageous, so satisfactory, as the lionly bound them to declare they were not berality and justice of the British legislature traitors. But, surely, to call upon people to could bestow. This would effectually presay so of themselves, was no very great com- vent them lending ear to any suggestions pliment to them. On the contrary, it must which catholics, the enemies of this counbe something very painful to their feelings, try, could propose to them. Besides, it especially if such a test was imposed on ought not to be forgotten, that the situation them as a particular class. If all were equally of the catholics was the more irksome and obliged to such a test it would not be felt as disgusting that they were held in inferiority a degradation by the catholics. As to the by their own countrymen; a situation that question of the time, it was stated, that outraged the feelings more than subjection there was no chance of the measure being to strangers. It was time to put an end to carried at this moment. Upon what ground this source of jealousy, and by admitting so the noble lord made that assertion, he was important a part of the population of the at a loss to know. It surely could not be empire to a full participation of the constiforgotten, that the same right hon. gent. tution, unite them sincerely in the interests who had retired from office, because he could of the country. In a word, if the laws not carry the catholic question, and who against catholics were not repealed, it was had stated that he never would return to impossible that things could continue in office till he could, was again in power. their present footing in Ireland. The hisAnd if this moment of war and difficulty tory of that as well as of every other counbe unseasonable, was not the moment when try, shewed that those who would not conMr. Pitt left office formerly, because he cede must coerce; and was it possible that could not carry this question, equally a time during a struggle like this, while our foreign of war and danger? Are not the enemies enemy was so aggrandized, that we could fleets at sea? Was not Ireland threatened spare one part of the strength of the empire with invasion, and was it not particularly to keep in subjection another? That such called upon at the present moment to con- was the alternative, every one who looked ciliate the inhabitants of that country? If at the state of Ireland and of Europe must the objection, that now the catholic claims perceive. And was such a wretched and danshould not be granted because the greatest gerous course to be preferred to the enlightenpart of catholic Europe was under the do-ed policy which would heal all discontents, and minion of Bonaparte, were to prevail, there leave the whole strength and resources of the could be no prospect of its being removed empire disposeable against the common during the continuance of the present mi- enemy? nistry. But if it be true that Bonaparte has Earl Camden had been extremely anxious such an ascendancy over catholics, it would to offer himself to the house, and had atbe an argument why we should do every tempted it at an earlier part of the debate, thing in our power to conciliate our catholic as he stood in a peculiar situation with refellow-subjects. The policy of king William spect to the question at present under conalways had been to practice toleration; and sideration, upon which, before he proceeded one of his strongest reasons for lamenting further, he said, he should vote against the the severities to which catholics were made house going into the committee moved by liable was, that it tended to augment the the noble lord (Grenville). When he repower of Louis XIVth. the head of the ceived his majesty's commands to repair to catholic body. The noble lord here read a Ireland in the year 1795, and found the passage from Bishop Burnet, illustrating this question of admitting catholics into the letrait in king William's character. The con- gislature of Ireland, he had thought it his duct of our government, however, was di- duty to resist that measure to the utmost of rectly the reverse. So far from giving the his power, and had great satisfaction in catholics a real toleration, when it was re-thinking that he resisted it with success, as VOL. IV.

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tion represented as belonging to the subject, but to which the words of the motion and the general character of the noble lord's (Grenville's) speech did not appear to lean.

The Bishop of Durham.-I have made more than one attempt to address myself to your lordships' notice at an earlier period of the debate. An advantage will result from my want of success, both to your lordships and myself; that I shall not, at this late hour, from the length of what I have to of fer, either trespass too long on your lordships' patience, or exhaust my own strength. I shall avoid a repetition of those arguments which have already been urged with much ability by those lords who have delivered their opinions. If ever there was a subject, the consideration of which peculiarly and imperiously called for temperate discussion and dignified moderation, it is that of the petition, which has been presented to this

be conceived the measure would before the union have been attended with the greatest disadvantage, and even danger. When the union between Great Britain and Ireland was happily effected, he confessed he thought he saw a moment when the same objections did not exist, and indeed was of opinion that it would have been expedient, at least, to consider whether such alterations could not be made in that code of laws which imposes disabilities on different classes of his Majesty's subjects, with a view of entering into some general plan, as might, under proper provisions, admit every person complying with those provisions into all the privileges enjoyed by his Majesty's subjects in general, without endangering the present church establishment, and he thought that such participation should have been extended to other sects as well as to the catholics. His lordship expressed his opinion that such a measure might at the above period have been in-house by certain noblemen and gentlemen troduced with advantage, steps having previously been taken to conciliate the feelings of the learned professions, the law and the church circumstances, however, took place, which induced Lord Camden to be convinced that it would not be expedient, at the time alluded to, to take steps even to ascertain if the measure were practicable, and of course that the measure itself could not be introduced with any chance of success. Such was the opinion of those who quitted his Majesty's service in 1801, and till the present moment it has not appeared that any of those persons have felt that the question could be brought forward with propriety; he was, therefore, yet to learn what there was in the present situation of affairs which could induce their lordships' to consider the present an advantageous period for such a discussion. He was decidedly of opinion that in the present state of the feelings of the country, it was imprudent to agitate the question, for the sake of those very persons who are represented as desirous of having it brought forward. Although he did not see the danger in granting those privileges to the Catholics which some persons did, yet he was fully persuaded that they could not at the present moment be granted without creating great discontent amongst other classes of dissenters as well as the members of the established church. He therefore deprecated the discussion, but if it must proceed, he had made up his mind to oppose going into a committee, not only upon the grounds before stated, but also as objecting to doing so for any of those purposes, which the speech introducing the mo

of property in Ireland, on behalf of themselves and others professing the Roman catholic religion. After a period of religious. difference and civil discord it is indeed of the utmost importance, that, in agitating a question like the present, we should be influenced by an increased anxiety to guard. against every unfair or unfavourable impression from. recent injuries, or internal discontents. It is essential that we should resolve to preserve inviolate and sacred the principles of the establishment, and to extend that toleration, forbearance, and Christian charity, which are its distinctive marks, to their utmost practicable limit.-Religious toleration, my lords, is the primary principle and peculiar characteristic of our established church. By the practice of it, we have been habituated to respect and revere even the errors of the conscientious Christian; and we have been enabled to preserve harmony and good will, not only between protestant sects, but between every denomination of Christians. Under these impressions, my lords, I have attentively perused this petition. I have endeavoured to discover what extension of personal toleration is asked, that can be consistent with our civil and religious establishment; I have not considered what they would have given to us, but what we could with safety give to them ;-not what we might in justice have refused, but what we could in kindness have granted, as the offering of affection and good will. How far it has been our disposition to shew, not merely toleration, but real and active beneficence to persons differing from us in articles of faith,

neral provision for the education of their children; not interfering with their religious tenets, but attending to their instruction, to making them useful to themselves and to the community, and to giving them the unequivocal advantage of religious and moral habits. These, my lords, I looked to, as the objects of this petition. But what do I' find in it? nothing in which the general mass of the Irish catholics is concerned; nothing that is connected with personal toleration; nothing that is to promote the social and domestic habits of the labouring class, or to improve their resources: nothing, my lords, that is to have a general. operation in bettering the condition of our catholic fellow subjects in Ireland; or that' is calculated to do more than to give certain ́ privileges and influence to a very few opu-' lent individuals among them. In short, my lords, this is not a petition for toleration, but a demand of power. It is a complaint, that the present system detaches from property its proportion of political weight and influence; and it asks of the legislature three things-the right of sitting in parliament; of exercising corporate offices; and of being subjected to the burthen of acting as sheriffs of counties:-The first, comprising the functions of legislation; the second, the privileges of corporate franchise; and the third, the important delegation of his Majesty's executive power, in every county of Ireland. These, my lords, are powers of no inconsiderable magnitude. But before we grant them, let us at least pause, until we have ascertained how far their effects may extend; and whether, after such a concession, we shall, or shall not, be able to obtain toleration for our protestant fellow subjects in Ireland. Let us pause, until we have well considered the guards, which the English constitution has placed over our esta

may have appeared by the reception and protection which this country has recently afforded to the French priests; where to religious prejudices was superadded political danger; and when we had no security against the introduction of spies and enemies; nor any reasonable assurance that there might not be individuals among them, desirous of purchasing their return on almost any conditions which the usurped power of the French government might think proper to dictate. In that instance we had also to encounter religious danger from the bigoted spirit of conversion, which characterizes their religion; from the unfavourable sentiments which they had nourished from their earliest infancy, with respect to English protestants; and from a peculiar species of domineering intolerance, which distinguishes the French from all other nations. And yet these considerations, my lords, did not deter us from receiving them with all the warm charity of Christians, and the liberality of Englishmen; exhibited not merely by the higher orders in the hour of plenty, but by the poor and necessitous at a period of general scarcity. If we could do so much, and do it so willingly, for foreigners and enemies, can it for a moment be supposed, that we are not prepared to shew every degree of warm and affectionate kindness to our friends and fellow subjects in Ireland; can it be imagined that we shall not be ready to forget every difference of opinion, and to endeavour to promote their happiness and improvement, to the utmost of our power? In looking to the welfare of the great mass of Roman catholics in Ireland, I mean that useful body of men which in every country must compose the most numerous class of its inhabitants, it will be wise and benevolent so to use the power which the constitution has placed in us, as a part of a protes-blished church; and, while we sedulously tant legislature, as to do for them individually all that (were the power in their hands) they would be wise in doing for themselves. In this view, my lords, it may be a subject for our consideration, how far we can better provide for the discharge of their religious duties, and how far we may with propriety assist them in that respect. We may inquire how far we can improve their temporal condition, by supplying the means and motives of industry, and by every exertion of kindness, which can promote their domestic comfort, improve their character, and meliorate their condition: and we inay endeavour to make a more ge

grant every reasonable indulgence to the scruples of the conscientious, let us keep inviolate the barriers of our religious and political constitution, and preserve that entire, which can only be preserved by its entirety. In the consideration of this subject, it will be necessary to advert to the superior num ber of papists in Ireland; to the peculiar powers which their clergy exercise over the laity; to the general connection of that clergy with a foreign power; and to the degraded and servile dependance of the head of their church, upon a state extremely inimical to this country. We must also advert to the irritation of recent hostilities; and

not merely to the probable consequences to the Irish protestants, but also the danger to the catholics themselves; and, I may add, to the indelicacy, not to use a harsher term, of placing increased power in their hands, circumstanced and connected as they at present are. It will also be important that your lordships should consider the consequences, as to other sects; whether you can refuse to any Irish protestant, what you grant to every Irish catholic; and again, on what ground you can give to the Irish catholics, that which you withhold from the catholics in England; and where, and upon what principle the line is to be drawn. All this requires serious and mature deliberation. It must again and again be considered; and every possible effect and consequence weighed with the nicest and most attentive accuracy, and with the most patient continuance of labour, before a change so fundamental and unprecedented be adopted. For, my lords, if the bulwarks of our established church are in part removed, how will the other separated and insulated parts be protected? If while it is entire and connected, it is the object of attack; if we have even now to exert ourselves in its defence, and to rally round the citadel, to avert the danger which threatens it; what hope will remain to preserve it, in its broken and mutilated state? On these grounds, my lords, I conceive this petition to be inadmissible; and I feel myself compelled to reject it, from a sense of duty to the established church; which in my conscience I believe to be the best constituted church which the Christian world ever saw; from a sense of duty to that civil form of government, under which I bless God that I was born and live; and from a sense of duty to my country.

house could not suppose that the catholics would stop there. No, the catholic hierarchy looked for the domains and revenues of the established clergy, and those must follow the grant of those things for which they now applied. Nay, more, the house would feel it necessary to proceed further, the 5th article of the union must be repealed, and the catholic church established in Ireland, for without this he had no hope that the catholics would be contented, and tranquillity securely established. Until the hierarchy were in possession of that church property which they naturally and anxiously desired, they would not cease to excite discontent, and if they ever obtained that property, perhaps matters would not end there. It was, indeed, most probable that a total separation from this country would be the next object of pursuit. Apprehending such consequences from the proposed concessions, and he could assure the house that such was the prevailing apprehensions among the more intelligent protestants in Ireland, he must deprecate the proposition. The comparison made between the case of Scotland and that of Ireland, he felt to be quite unfounded-because the church of the Scotch was the establishment of the country, which remained in quiet obedience to the state of Great Britain, and in perfect harmony with this country. But that any thing like peace or quiet, or harmony, could exist in Ireland while the catholics were subject to such a hierarchy as the present, he thought utterly hopeless. Another difference arose from this, that Scotland was, even if she were hostile to the protestent establishment, by no means equal to Ireland in point of weight and importance in the empire. Besides, the comparisons made, alluded only to persons. who sought for places of power and profit in England, and they, it was to be recollected, were obliged to take the sacrament to qualify themselves for such places. The Scotch, therefore, adverted to by the noble mover, became protestants before they were admitted to those high offices he had mentioned. Of course, there was this difference in the two cases that the presbyterians of Scotland were not eligible to those high offices until they took those tests which the catholics claiming those offices refused to take. In the one case there was obviously

Lord Redesdale observed that the motion before the house was, in point of form, that the house should resolve into a committee, but the object of the noble mover evi lently, and the prayer of the petition expressly was, that the catholics should be admitted to an equal participation of constitutional rights and power on equal terms with the protestants. If this were to be complied with, the constitution of church and state could not, in his judgment, long survive, The catholics professed also their anxiety to be relieved from all tests. This was insinuated in the petition, and it was the language pub-no danger while in the other every thing licly held by the members of that body in Ireland. The house should, in considering this question, recollect, and deeply reflect upon the situation of Ireland. If the demands in the petition were acceded to, the

was to be apprehended. He would put it to the house whether such a distinction in favour of the catholics would be consistent with common policy or justice to require of one class of subjects a test of qualifica

tion, which another, claiming equal privi- | summons. They accordingly waited on the leges, refused to subscribe. He would ask vicar-general, expressed their contrition and whether such a proceeding could be recon- readiness to make any submission in their cileable with the principles of policy which power. But no, the vicar-general was inIgoverned our ancestors? Between the Ro- exorable, and this couple was excommuniman catholic clergy and laity, the noble lord acted for having been married according to stated, that there was a very marked dis- law. But this was not all, such as should tinction. The clergy-they were to be con- have any communication with them, were sidered in quite different points of view. to be excommunicated also. The man, The clergy formed a great compact body, however, being a person with whom many standing in open defiance of the law-exer- were in the habit of communicating, it was cising an authority which the law did not reported to the bishop, and above 200 persanction, and considering the protestant sons, men and women, were from 20 miles clergy as usurpers (here there were marks of distance summoned before the vicar-general, disapprobation from the opposition benches). They accordingly obeyed, but somehow The noble lord resumed, and repeated his the vicar was so much appeased as not to last assertion. In support of this assertion impose the excommunication. He howhe would appeal to any noble lord who was ever inflicted a penance, which was, that acquainted with Ireland. The catholic each person should perform a pilgrimage of clergy, he knew, denominated the learned 30 miles: that is, from what are called prelate on the bench above him (the Arch- Holy Wells, in Ireland, to another, each bishop of Armagh) simply Dr. Stuart. These bearing a label, specifying the cause for clergy always called themselves the regular which such penance was imposed. Things successors of the ancient bishops of the similar to this frequently happened in Irecountry. They took their titles, used their land, and such was the fear they inspired, insignia, and assumed every thing appertain- that the influence of the clergy was almost ing to the prelacy that was not prohibited unbounded. They, in fact, assumed an auby law. In a petition once presented to the thority much greater than belonged to the house of commons of Ireland, they put their catholic clergy in any other country whatsignatures as regular bishops, and there was ever; for their authority was restrained by only one man in that assembly (Dr. Duige- no law. It was quite without controul. nan) who had the spirit to notice this gross Before the reformation, the power of the and insulting violation of the law. Such catholics was not free from legislative rewas the state of the catholic hierarchy, that strictions. There was a remedy against the he must deprecate any increase of their abuse of ecclesiastical power. But now power. They already possessed an autho- what was the remedy? An appeal to Rome; rity of great extent-an authority too, en- and what kind of redress was to be obtainforced by the most dreadful means-that of ed from such an appeal? If any persecuted This excommunication catholics could or would resort to it, he was of such a nature that the poor victim would leave it to the house to judge.. whom it denounced, might starve in the The catholic clergy dissolved marriages on street before any catholic would communi- various grounds, not recognized by our cate with or relieve him. He knew, in-laws. They forbid marriages within cerdeed, an instance where a poor person, who had been excommunicated would have actually starved, if it had not been for the benevolence of a protestant divine, who supplied him with subsistence. There was another instance of the exercise of this extraordinary power which had come to his knowledge. Two catholics were married by a protestant clergyman. This being heard of by the parish priest, he reported it to the bishop. The persons who had been married were immediately summoned to appear before the catholic vicar-general of the diocese, and the protestant clergyman, consulting the peace of his parish, and perhaps his own safety, with that of the parties summoned, advised them to submit to the

excommunication.

tain limits of consanguinity, contrary to law. In fact, the legitimacy of children, and of course the succession to property, was made to depend in a great measure on their will. The noble lord proceeded to account for this by stating, that the reformation had never been perfect in Ireland, and that, consequently, the catholic hierarchy still retained 'extraordinary power. The imperfcct progress of the reformation he illus trated by referring to the reigns of Elizabeth, James I. and the Protector. Until the lat ter period, the catholic bishops, &c. retained many of the ecclesiastical domains. Thus, in consequence of the slow progress of the reformation, the catholic hierarchy still retains a power without law-nay, contrary