of house-keepers to the royal palaces, and | indelicate to reform those parts of the among others one from Haverford-west, expenditure of the civil list which related stating that John Manners, esq. was house- to his Majesty's household, by act of parkeeper at Whitehall. He again referred liament; and as the House had, in a former to the Red-book, for before, he had ima- determination, avoided entering upon them, gined it to be an error, and that it had he thought it probable that they would either meant lady John Manners, or Joan adhere to the same rule, in their determiManners; however, after brushing aside nation respecting the great wardrobe, now the crowd of hoop-petticoats which almost under their consideration, as falling within concealed him, he espied John Manners, that description. That he hoped the comesq. He said, he immediately went to mittee would pay so much credit to the Whitehall, which he found to be one of part he had taken in public affairs, and to the ideal palaces, without habitations for his conduct in life, as to acquit him of any retinue, or capability of reception of re-interested views respecting that office, sidents. All he saw there was several paintings of nudities in the Banquetting House, by Peter Paul Rubens, and a painter busy about them, who, according to the modern fashion, was employed in correcting and improving the works of that great master. He saw, however, no house-keeper, nor any occasion for one, though 500l. a year and better, was paid to John Manners, esq. for holding that office. He mentioned this, to shew at once that the office of house-keeper to any of the royal palaces, was, generally speaking, a mere sinecure, which, however, as long as it was bestowed on ladies of condition, should receive no shock or violence from his hands. The rest of the clause went to the abolition of the offices of the great wardrobe, &c. which undoubtedly were so far useless, that though they cost a great deal of money, the committee must see the whole duty of them might be done at considerably less expence by other persons. Lord John Cavendish said, that the of fice of the great wardrobe was of modern institution, and that it had not been instituted under an idea, that it was to remain a permanent office. Mr. Gilbert said, that when he suggested to the House, two years ago, the plan of economy and regulations upon which the present Bill was founded, he hoped his Majesty's ministers would have advised him to have made the necessary inquiries, and to have directed such retrenchments in his expences, as might have enabled him to have given some considerable sums in ease of his subjects under their present burdens; if that had been done, instead of the petitions which had been presented to this House, his Majesty would most probably have had the satisfaction of receiving addresses of thanks from his people. That as he had upon a former occasion intimated his opinion, that it would be notwithstanding he was a member of it; he assured the committee, that on every occasion, where his own interest had stood in competition with that of the public, he had always preferred the latter. That with the assistance of the master of the wardrobe, he had reformed such abuses in the office, as fell under his inspection, as comptroller, and had saved his Majesty 9004. per annum. That he did not wish to have that office freed from inspection and regulation; on the contrary, he knew there were sinecure places, and other things in it, which wanted reformation; but he did not think it proper to have them regulated by act of parliament; rather wishing his Majesty would be pleased to make the necessary reformations in all offices within his household, by his own authority; and that he thought it might be proper for the House to address his Majesty for that purpose, as it would, by the saving, furnish him with the means, not only of relieving many particular distressed objects, which his goodness and humanity would lead him to, but also of giving relief and support to his subjects in general, when oppressed by heavy taxes. That he did not think himself of consequence enough to make a motion of that sort, but it coincided so much with his general sentiments and wishes, that if any other gentleman would do it, he should have his hearty concurrence. Earl Nugent objected to the clause, as tending very unjustifiably to interfere with his Majesty's domestic regulations. He said, if the hon. gentleman, when he saw the painter at work in the Banqueting House, at Whitehall, on the paintings of Rubens, had asked that painter who he was, he did not at all doubt, but the man would have told him he was a reformer, and that he was attempting to reform and alter those pictures which had been the original work of a greater master, and had been admired for a long series of years. Just as the painter's attempts to correct the pictures of Rubens had struck the hon. gentleman, did the hon. gentleman's Bill strike him; it was an attempt to reform, alter, and correct the constitution; he cautioned the hon. gentleman, therefore, how he proceeded; the constitution was the work of the old school, the work of those masters, whose universal excellence and skill had been established by the sanction and approbation of admiring ages; let the hon. gentleman consider, that the picture, however mellowed by the hand of time, had not lost its original beauty, and that the rude hand of a modern reformer might, under the notion of correcting and improving, spoil the piece altogether. Mr. Burke, in reply, said, the noble lord's argument was an argument ad verecundiam, which he would readily answer. That which made the painter be employed to re-touch the almost invisible strokes of Rubens, made him turn reformer-the necessity of the times. That it was contrary to his genius, his temper, and his wish, contrary to every inclination of his mind, to attempt the invidious task he had then in hand; he did assure the noble lord, however, that nothing but dire necessity had forced him upon it. He had long lamented the great and pressing occasion for some person to attempt a reformation in many of the great branches of the public expenditure. He had waited almost to the last moment, in hopes that some other person, whose superior talents, whose turn of mind, and whose zeal, would better qualify him for the office of reforming what was wrong; finding that nobody would do it, and the necessity of its being done pressing more and more, he had at last ventured, unwillingly, upon a task which he disliked as much as any man living. He did assure the noble lord he would much rather have proposed to build his Majesty splendid palaces, to buy him the most valuable pictures, and to do every thing which could contribute to hold him up in all the possible splendour and magnificence of royalty, than to have taken upon him an office disagreeable in itself, and sure to create him enemies, namely, that of abolishing places in the houshold, with a view, by making a trifling saving for the public, to assist somewhat towards the great expences they laboured uuder. Solomon, with all his glory, was said not to be clothed like the lillies of the field: our Solomon, with all his heart, might outvie the lillies of the field; he had not the smallest objection. He repeated it, it was the necessity of the times, and not his will, that made him a reformer. He could not, however, but wonder a little at the noble lord's comparison of his Bill, and the objects of it, to a modern painter's reforming the pictures of Rubens; he should have thought the simile of the old tattered worsted stockings, which had been used on a preceding day, would have suited better, because his Bill was calculated not to alter the constitution, but to pick out the old worsted, to draw the rents together, and mend the holes. Such an office as that he had undertaken was far from being new. There was in the houshold itself an office like it, and that was called the office of arras mender, whose duty it was to take care of the tapestry hangings, the works of old masters, and which had been admired for a series of years, but which (from the decay and rottenness occasioned in them by the teeth of devouring time, and from the holes made in them by the teeth of rats, and other obnoxious animals, who sheltered themselves behind them, nibbling them away, and continually preying upon them), were in danger of falling to pieces, and occasionally required the assistance of the arras mender, to patch them up, and make them hold together. Having said this, he took up his minutes of the enumeration of the duties of the great wardrobe, stated by Mr. Gilbert, and in a vein of the richest ridicule, animadverted on each, keeping the committee in a roar almost the whole time he was treating of them. The first articles, he observed, were coronations and great funerals, two articles, which, he hoped would give no occasion for the employment of the great wardrobe for many, many years to come. His Majesty, he thanked God, had been blest with a vigorous and healthful constitution; in all probability, therefore, no gentleman present would live to see a coronation. hon. gentleman had talked a great deal, and very pathetically, on the subject of great funerals; perhaps he foresaw that the clause would pass the committee, and as that would naturally effect the death of the great wardrobe, the hon. gentleman might have in view its funeral procession, in which lord Pelham, and the hon. gentleman, would necessarily walk as chief The mourners, a sight certainly very melancholy to behold, but particularly affecting to the hon. gentleman, and those other officers who made up the solemn shew. Great funerals in general, Mr. Burke said, were great follies; the worst waste of money that could be adopted. Now and then, indeed, when the nation meant to do honour to a deserving character, to whose efforts, while living, it stood highly indebted, they were proper, justifiable, and even necessary. He had seen one such funeral [of the earl of Chatham] and, there indeed, he must do the great wardrobe the justice to say, that they had rigidly adhered to that virtue, which it was one object of his Bill to recommend and enforce, the virtue of œconomy! So œconomical, and so saving were the great wardrobe on that occasion, that the cloaks were short, scanty, and threadbare, and no scarfs, nor hardly any thing necessary to be had. Perhaps, indeed, it was intended as a stroke of policy in the great wardrobe, who, knowing that the minority would be the chief attendants on that funeral, and remembered that it was the minority who made so much noise about œconomy in parliament, were determined to treat them in their own way, and to shew that one public office at least attended with due deference to their doctrines, and carried their practice of œconomy even beyond the bounds of de cency. The next article of Mr. Gilbert's list, which he took notice of, was the clothing of the state trumpeters; by these, he said, he presumed the writers for government were meant, who having so far succeeded in their efforts as to render ministry universally unpopular and detestable, certainly ought to be well taken care of and properly clothed. He understood, however, that the noble lord in the blue ribbon, had, in that business, shewn some regard to the public, and by way of saving expence, had contracted to pay the work these writers undertook, by the gross. After going through several other articles, he said; "so much for the work done for the crown, now let us see what is done for the people." Why, the great wardrobe furnishes the House of Commons, and the House of Lords. The proper constitutional furniture of the former, he said, were living figures, such, however, as were sometimes rather costly, and by the price of the purchase not very œconomically bought. With regard to the seats, it was impossible for him by the feel to ascertain whether they were done by contract, or how, but there need, he thought, be no great expence lavished on them; matted rushes would inspire as patriotic sentiments to the persons who sat upon them, as soft cushions. He presumed, that neither lord Pelham, nor the hon. gentleman, troubled their heads about them; that if they did any thing that concerned furnishing either House of Parliament it was by stuffing the woolsacks, and other metaphorical seats of the other House. Having for a considerable time excited laughter by his wit, Mr. Burke returned to a serious consideration of the clause, pointing out the great wardrobe, and other offices, as unnecessary, and therefore as they cost a considerable sum, he said, he thought they might well be spared, and ought to be abolished. Mr. Medley rose to declare, that he wished for œconomy as much as any gentleman present, but he never would consent to touch any part of the King's establishment. His Majesty had given up his hereditary estates in exchange for that civil establishment; the matter, therefore, exclusive of its having turned out exceedingly advantageous to the public, was a matter of bargain between parliament and the crown, and being once made, that House had no right whatever to interfere with it, or break it; for which reason, as long as he sat in that House, he never would consent to alter or touch a single hair of it. When he said this, he begged not to be supposed to speak from any sinister or interested view. He was as independent a man as any gentleman present: he did assure the House he never would either ask or accept of any favour from the crown, and if he was then at his Majesty's feet, he would say the same. Mr. Hopkins spoke in support of the clause, declaring that the offices meant to be abolished by it, cost a great deal of money, and answered no good purpose. Sir Richard Sutton condemned the clause in very strong terms, and reprobated the idea of furnishing the royal palaces with furniture, pictures, &c. by contract, as a mode of treating the prince equally degrading to him, and mean and pitiful in that House to attempt to enact by act of parliament. He mentioned the king of Prussia's wardrobe, as described by Dr. Moore in his late publication, in proof of the wretched manner a king clothed by contract would appear. Mr. Burke observed that the hon. bart. | he declared, had no connection with the had been speaking to a wrong clause, for great wardrobe. It was an office held by that there was not one word about con- a very good friend and near relation of his tracts in the clause then before the com- (the hon. James Brudenell) and an office mittee. Mr. Burke said, he had been used of a very different nature, he believed, to hear of the king of Prussia as a great from what the hon. gentleman imagined. soldier, a great legislator, and though with The master of the robes was always conmany strong foibles as a man, was one of sidered as first groom of the bed-chamber, the greatest monarchs of the present cen- and had the entrees the same as the others; tury. His economy was worth our copying. as the hon. gentleman, therefore, had deSir R. Sutton rose again, and said theclared he did not wish to meddle with them, honourable gentleman was mistaken, for he presumed he would not wish, when he if he looked to page 7 of the Bill, he would knew what he then told him, to abolish the there see a clause referring to the clause office of master of the robes. now before the committee, by which it was enacted, that all furniture and other moveables, to be purchased for the use of his Majesty's household, were to be contracted for by the Lord Chamberlain; a clause which every gentleman must see the absurdity of, because in some cases it was impracticable, particularly in the purchase of pictures. Mr. Burke told the hon. baronet that he had never designed to abridge his Majesty either in furniture, pictures, &c. but that if his Bill had passed altogether as he brought it in, his Majesty might have had just whatever he chose, only he would have been certain of being better served. With regard to pictures, Mr. Burke said, he had seen some in his Majesty's palaces, which he should have imagined had been bought by contract, and those very badly bought, they were such miserable worthless pieces. He begged the hon. baronet, however, to recollect, that finding gentlemen in general were averse to the King's being served by contract, he had himself declared, he should drop all that part of the Bill, and, where it had occurred, as in page 4, respecting the Lord Steward, he had passed over the clause altogether. He ascribed the hon. baronet's talking of a clause two pages off instead of that under consideration, to his consciousness that there was no ground for objection in that clause which was really before the committee. Lord North rose to speak to the clause, which he objected to generally, declaring his disinclination to tear the King's houshold to pieces by act of parliament, and his determination to oppose every such attempt. His lordship said, there were offices jumbled together in the clause, which had no sort of analogy whatever, nor could he conceive on what ground the hon. gentleman had put them into the same clause. The office of master of the robes, [VOL. XXI.] Sir Horace Mann said, he had already declared his disapprobation of violent measures, and for that reason had expressed his objection to committees of association. He lamented the absence of Mr. Pitt, whose bad state of health he described as the cause, and spoke of his disinterested zeal for the public welfare, and his great abilities, in terms of the warmest panegyric. He declared, the extract from the resolutions of the meeting held at Cambridge, on the 10th instant, which Mr. Pitt had read to the House a few days ago, had given him the highest satisfaction, inasmuch as they exactly coincided with his own sentiments. He begged the House, however, to attend to the grounds upon which the Cambridge resolutions were founded-a flattering expectation of the further interference of the House of Commons, with regard to the grievances complained of by the petitions of the people, and a confidence that what they should do in conformity to their solemn resolutions of the 6th of April, would give effectual relief. He bid the House, therefore, consider, that they must do something that would fall in with the expectations of the people, and not abuse their confidence. The objects of the clause under consideration, he thought were very important, and as they tended towards economy, coincided with the petitions of the people; but, perhaps, it would be more respectful to the crown to do the business by address, rather than by act of parliament. He wished his hon. friend had been present to take the lead in such a business; he would gladly have followed him upon it. He declared, that it appeared to him a very proper step, and if no other person would do it, he said, he would move an address to the crown, requesting that those things might be done which were the objects of the Bill, provided he found that such a measure should prove agreeable to the House. [2 N] General Conway said the ground of argument had changed so much since the Bill was last under consideration, that he scarcely knew in what manner to treat the subject. It was highly necessary that something should be done in compliance with the petitions of the people; the people had particularly recommended conomy, and it was undoubtedly highly necessary. We were now confessedly carrying on a war of economy with our foes, a war of finance, which must unavoidably terminate in the ruin of them or us. The advisers of his Majesty, ought, therefore, to adopt every measure that tended towards œconomy, and they could not do better than look to France, and see what had been the conduct of that court. From the moment Lewis 16 came to the throne, reformation and economy had been the great objects of their attention. The general here pulled some translations of French edicts from his pocket, and read an extract from the very first published by the present French king, immediately on his accession to the throne in 1774. The extract was couched in very affectionate terms of address to the subjects of France, informing them that the preceding reign had abounded in liberalities and profusenesses, to an excess extremely detrimental to the interest of the kingdom, and that the king was determined to reform them as much as possible, and to begin his reign with abridging his own expences, the better to get the finances of his kingdom into good order. The consequences of steadily adhering to this resolution, the general described as exceedingly beneficial to France; the end, he said, was so fully answered, that she had yet imposed no taxes on the subject, and had this year, for the first time, made a loan, and that a very small one, whereas we had added sixty million to our national debt already. He estimated the savings made by the king of France in his household only, at near a million annually. Mr. Rous commended the clause, pointed out the saving it would occasion, and said it came directly under the prayer of the petitions, reminding the committee that the House had pledged themselves by their resolutions of the 6th of April, to do something effectually to diminish the influence of the crown, and advised the agreeing to the present clause as one step towards discharging that promise. Mr. Powys expressed his astonishment that the minister had not risen and given the House assurance, that if the address which had been mentioned, was proposed, it should not be objected to and defeated by the noble lord and his friends. Mr. Adair urged the absolute necessity of complying with the prayers of the petitions. In order to prove that the committee were warranted to interfere, he moved to have the resolution proposed by Mr. Pitt on the 6th of April, and agreed to by the committee, and afterwards confirmed by the House, read.—It was read accordingly at the table. Lord North then rose, and after apologizing for sitting silent so long, said, that undoubtedly an address to the throne was both a parliamentary and constitutional measure; that every thing which came from that House would always be regarded with the utmost attention and respect, by those about the person of his Majesty; that he owed a resolution of that House the greatest deference; he owed it also his obedience, not, indeed, as much as he owed to an act of parliament, but as much as a resolution of one House of Parlament was entitled to. An address from that House, was the voice of the people of England, which was at all times entitled to the utmost deference. The people of England, when they spoke through their representatives, adopted that mode of speaking to the throne, by which alone the people of England could be heard or could speak. Gentlemen had said a great deal about œconomy, and the king of Prussia had been mentioned. The sovereign, whom he had the honour to serve, in his desires to have œconomy strictly attended to at all times, and to comply with the wishes of his people, would give way to no sovereign on the face of the globe. His Majesty was always eager to please the people, and to do every thing in his power that could possibly contribute to their happiness and welfare. General Conway rose in great heat, and charged the noble lord with having perverted his words, and applied what he had said relative to the advisers of the crown, to the person of the sovereign, a matter exceedingly improper and directly contrary to order." Lord North said, the hon. gentleman had no right to stop him in so much heat; that he was a servant of the crown, as well as the hon. gentleman, and as faithful a servant. He contended, he had not been disorderly; he had a right to say, the so |