when things are represented hard and inconvenient to the king, and what we have offered not to be well received by him: insomuch, that, formerly, a person not liked by the parliament was sure to be preferred by the king, and every one must follow the ministry, or have an ill life. I have not the same advantage of speaking as other gentlemen, but you know my meaning. This is no hard thing upon the king; things taken in time are easily understood, and all is well when once those about the king represent them well. They may scramble for Money for the king, and we for our Privileges, as has been done formerly; but as for your Address, I would not lay it aside, but that half a dozen gentlemen wait on the king, and make not this little thing of Shales's too great a solemnity; but I would lay before the king the Miscarriages by land and sea. If the king would do nothing, it looks as if those about him would asperse the government, and do nothing to cure it. Unless Miscarriages be represented by land and sea, nothing, no, nothing, can cure it. Let, then, some gentlemen (not to come to the persons, but every one of them, not only the putting in these Officers) show what we have done at sea, and spent 1,300,000l. and what has been done in Ireland, how we have taught them to be soldiers, who were cowards before. I move for the Address. Serjeant Maynard. That there are more than a Shales in this I doubt not, both a great and a tall man. But I am for going on upon this Shales, else we shall blow the deer, and he will go into the herd. They that besiege the king will oppose all Addresses. If you would break a faggot, break the sticks one by one; when a kingdom, nay, a king, is like to be lost, and make us all beggars. When this Address is presented, the king cannot but think it reasonable; a person that has so notoriously and wickedly demeaned himself! You have only Shales now; much more may be added hereafter. In the mean time go on with Shales. Shall we give our money to we know not whom? When Shales is gone, it may be another in his place as bad as he: therefore go to all you can find out. Mr. Foley. It is said, Shales is a little man,' but we know not what great man recommended him. To say, We should stay till we had all our Grievances, to make a Remonstrance of them together,' that is much harder. I am dissatisfied to stay till all Grievances are enumerated; at that rate, we can never come to any body, and we shall be quite undone, till the king and we be all on a bottom. Sir Wm. L. Gower. I am for taking out all the deer in this king's park that were in king James's park. Since it must be a general Address, let it be a Remonstrance to take in every thing by land and sea. Be pleased to recommit this Address, and let none but a Protestant breed of deer be left, and recommit the Address upon the debate. Sir Duncombe Colchester. If you turn out the deer, it will do you no good, unless you VOL, V. turn out the keeper too. (Said some, 'Does he mean the king?') Sir Robert Rich. You were told, 'You have sat several days upon the State of the Nation to little effect more, than that you have found out the Navy and Ariny were betrayed;' if that be little, I know not what is greater. It is said,Shales is sent for out of Ireland;' but if you do not know who advised to take him into employment, you do nothing. A general Address is none at all. You are moved to commit the Address; in my opinion, that is to give it a decent interment. If the king know neither the keeper, nor the park, we must be plain with him. Mr. Hawles. You find the nation betrayed, and you know not by whom. I believe, that, at common law, the suggestion why a person is employed is to be expressed in his patent. Ed. 3. c. i. because the king granted many pardons, the persons who suggested them were to be expressed. I think the common law was so. Now, instead of ex certa scientiá, it is ex mero motu. This could not be a ground unless with a Non obstante. But since this is not pursued, it is not an unusual thing to ask this question in the Address. I think it not a crime to recommend an ill man, but to know him an ill man, is. It is said, We should not do what one gentleman would not do to another.' It is not the end of governments to punish, but by misfortune they must do it. At Court-Leets they swear to discover all injuries done to the lord, &c. If my pocket be picked, it is not civil for me to enquire who did it! Is this a way of arguing? Here is no hardship on the king; it has been done so before; it has been put upon Ed. 3. and Hen. 4. Those were great men in that time, and this may make this king great in this. Sir Rd. Temple. In what Hawles says of Pardons he may be in the right, but not in the Grants. I would follow the method of our ancestors, respondeat superior, when under the conduct of another man. In an Army a general must find whom he employs, &c. I would recommit the Address, and represent all Miscarriages. Sir Edw. Seymour. I was one of those against the Address, but when you have reA solved, it is not to be laid aside by art. man of art is so near a man of something else, that I desire not to be the man. Gentlemen say they would have it recommitted, but I hear no reason given for it. That is against all methods. By the same argument, all other Addresses may be committed again and again, and that is, a decent interment,' as a gentleman called it. When we debate a thing over and over, I know not but that, instead of reforming Grievances, we shall be grievances to ourselves. This may be done, and grievances not left undone. If that be so hard upon you, not to remedy it, you will send your trade back to Amsterdam, and bring their religion instead of it. Assign any particular, &c. but it is an inexcusable levity to do all 2 HI this against order. I would not (as has been | moved) have the body of the house go with this Address: we can do no more when we present all our Grievauces. This is but a pimple, but a scab of your disease. That one person should draw a whole house, neverReserve yourselves for a greater occasion., And as it is too little for you to present in a body, so it is too big for a particular person, as has been moved. The Address was agreed to, and the Committee who prepared it, was ordered to pre sent it. The King's Message for a Commission to be sent into Ireland.] Nov. 30. Mr. Comptroller Wharton delivered the following Message from his majesty: "W. R. His majesty, having already declared his resolutions to prosecute the War in Ireland with the utmost vigour, and being desirous to use the means that may be most satisfactory and effectual in order to it, is graciously pleased, that this house do recommend a number of persons, not exceeding seven, to be commissioned by his majesty to take care of the Provisions, and such other preparations as shall be necessary for that service.-His majesty is farther pleased to let the house know, That upon consideration of the Address of Nov. 11, he gives them leave to nominate some persons to go over into Ireland, to take an Account of the number of the Army there, and the State and Condition of it; who shall receive his majesty's orders accordingly." now. Col. Austen. If ever thanks were due, it is The king grants before you ask, or if you had asked, you could not have mended it yourselves. A man in his state without asking; This is of so great consequence, that I would give particular Thanks, and that very signally, by the whole house. Sir Rob. Howard. The motion for the whole house to return the king Thanks, is very just and very seasonable; and I second it.-Ordered accordingly. Debate whether any Member should be put into the said Commission.] Dec. 2. Mr. Sache verell. I desire you would consider the substance of the Message, and first know whether the house will order any Member to be put into the Commission. I speak not for myself; I have neither health nor reason to act in that honourable employment, that the king was pleased to put upon me. The thing is of inighty importance, and is it not too weighty to be put upon us? I speak truly, I thought it too weighty; impossible, very impossible, when we cannot know the state of things, and, by consequence, what is wanting to supply Ireland. If those employed are not supplied, you will disgrace your members. Consider the honour of every member, and put him not upon difficulties that he cannot extricate himself out of. I move, That no member of the house be named for that employment.' Sir Tho. Clarges. By the king's Message it is not expected that members should be named, but it is recommended to you to nominate som persons to him. I am much less able to be in such an employment, by my age and infirunities. It is not decent nor proper for us to recommend ourselves, and it is impossible for men not exercised in so great affairs, in so short a time, the nature of Ireland considered. It was thought formerly that multiplicity of offices, as well as pensions, was inconvenient in this house. I thing it not fit that we recommend any of the house. Mr. Garroway. Since this has been moved, I think it for your service to pass such a vote. It is said abroad, We have too many Officers already here,' and I would not take upon us to name any more; what employment we have had is enough. I would return Thanks to his majesty for his gracious favour, but this is too great for us. I speak for your honour; such a vote will be satisfactory without doors; and so leave it to the king. Sir Christ. Musgrave. I think you will do great right to yourselves, to vote, That none of this house shall be nominated to this employment.' People do think we are labouring for places for ourselves. I think, if we can discharge what is before us, we are very happy. I would therefore vote, That none of the house shall be nominated.' Sir Tho. Littleton. I think the sense of the house is, not to meddle with this employmeut. I think it improper to pass a Vote, That none of this house shall be named.' I think it better moved, if you throw the compliment into the king's hand again; That it is too weighty for us to meddle with;' and if you will not meddle with it, it is an improper question to put, That no persons of this house shall be nominated.' Sir W. Williams. You have not only declared judgment on Shales, but you have addressed the king to know who advised him to employ him; but I doubt this will look abroad as if we find fault with all officers out of the house, and yet we will name none. Make a Vote not so much to satisfy yourselves as the world without doors. Mr. Howe. I think you give the people occasion to say You do little but go backward and forward, in your Address about Shales.' I was against it. The king has very graciously gratified the house with a thing put into your hands for your advantage-and they get nothing by it; I am little concerned who are put into places, if for the public good. Without asking the king questions, he cannot answer us. If persons be put in, &c. from hence, we know of whom to ask questions. Sir John Thompson. If the Miscarriages in Ireland be taken upon ourselves, I fear it will come to this, that if we recommend persons to take Shales's place, if no money be to act with, they cannot go on. king for what we do not accept of, and I move We may thank the for a Vote. Sir John Lowther. Some think this business too great for them, and it is for me to speak to. I would have this question with some explanation: That no member of the house be employed for Commissary of the Provisions,' may comprehend some employed already, and of the Irish committee. I desire this explanation, that it is your advice no members ought to be, so expressed that the king may do accordingly. It has been said, Perhaps there is no Money, and there may be Miscarriages, and a man will not take the load upon him;' but every body knows from whence money comes, and you may prevent those difficulties, that they have not a greater load than they can bear. Mr. Foley. I am for putting the question, 'That no member be employed, &c.' and it needs no explanation. For the Irish committee I would not have nominated in the house. Though not fit for us to nominate; yet, as a state of the kingdom, you may advise the king with qualifications. Mr. Howe. We are for removing persons, and yet put it into their hands to nominate more such, if we do not recommend. But I Col. Birch. I have a place, and will keep it as long as I can, and shall give no man cause to complain, as I shall answer it at the great day; and in this matter, I take the words to be recommendation. I mistrust myself, and not them, &c. when I differ. The king does really intend what he has sent you in the Message. I believe really, as things are managed, both at land and sea, we cannot last long. Be pleased to lay this aside, as too heavy for us. see, Offices are pointed at. I never knew any thing got by such Offices, but paper, pen, and ink, and a room. If there had been Money stirring, I should have been smelling after it. Put the weight off from your shoulders in this house, on whom the main weight will hang-I speak not of the Stores, nor of mustering the Army; that may be cured without sending into Ireland; but, for the latter part of the Message, what is used to be done in this matter? Six or seven men sat close to examine things, and the Report was brought to the house. Perhaps the king, or some of his ministers, may sit in this committee: possibly this way may give the king some assistance. As to the first part, do as you please; but, as to the second part of the Message, do something to make it practicable. Sir Henry Capel. I am for this house to have its liberty, and for the king to have his liberty too. Trusts are best put where there is most property, and there there are more riches, and the property of England is in the commons: Whom do they entrust? They think themselves safest in the hands of men of great estates, and great judgments; this will be the opinion of the counties and boroughs. It is said, 'It is not fit for us to recommend persons.' I am not read in records, but I have heard that, in former times, the thing has been done; will you not let the king go by such rules, that the counties have gone by? Will you put a negative upon him? To vote, 'That the commons will not meddle with capt, Shales,' a bad man, what advantage will you have of a negative? Suppose the king chuse a man to-morrow, that is able, shall he not come into parliament by reason of this Office? I hope this will awaken persons, so as to adjourn the debate. Sir John Guise. I hear it said, 'These are questions usually put ;' but I believe that in all reigns the kings have not had such care of the government. I think this very extraordinary. The Message has two parts; recommending persons, and settling a Commission. I think, the Victualling the Navy has orders to be undertaken without involving the commissioners in the Miscarriages of the former. The king says, 'I have been mistaken formerly; pray assist me.' If the house will do nothing in this, we must resolve to be ruined. say you are betrayed; will you not remedy it? I hope that being a member of this house does not make a man so profligate that he may not accept of it. If you will not take it into your hands to support yourselves, it looks like giving up the cause. Pray adjourn the debate. You Sir Rob. Howard. The first part of the Message is to recommend, the next is to send persons into Ireland; and upon this you raise a third, That you will recommend none of your Members.' You first thank the king, and then you unthank him again, and will not nominate. This raises a suspicion that, as soon as you have any thing to do with the king, it raises a prejudice on it--and that a man in office has not behaved himself as he ought, and as for his place he would willingly resign to a person, to behave himself honester and abler than be. You give the king Thanks, but it includes neither. It is not proper to raise a negative upon a Message that gives you no occasion, and unthank the king again, and make no use of it at all. The consequence is, the king and the people may be separated in their opinion and Pray leave it to the king, free, with choice. out a Vote. Mr. Sacheverell. The gentleman's discourse totally differs from the question propounded. 'Tis moved no farther than not to recommend any persons to the king that are Members, not to bar the king at all, nor the house from exaThe true single question mining the matter. is, Not to debar the king nor yourselves from examining the matter;' and pray put that question. Sir Christ. Musgrave. The question is not, Whether the king shall name any of your Members, but That you should not name your Members. I would not adjourn the debate, and leave it still upon the anvil. Mr. Hampden. This is a previous Vote that will end all debates upon yourselves to preclude any of your members to be nominated by yourselves. Your Vote will go abroad, and the people are in expectation. Possibly provisions may stand still, and betwixt the new and old officers, nothing be done. This Vote is not intended for the king, but to make use of in future debates. Sir Rob. Howard. You have voted the king | Thanks, which seems to accept what the king proposes; you must explain your Thanks. Mr. Papillon. I hope too sudden a Vote will not hinder you from the benefit of the first part of the Message. I offer to your considertion, whether there are not matters of greater weight before you, than to name persons for Provisions. This is a little thing in comparison of the great affair. I would adjourn the debate, and go to the bottom of the whole Message. Sir Tho. Lee. Though I have an Office, yet I think it my duty to serve my prince when I can. I know not but the king may trust me as well as my country. I am not for adjourning the debate, for the next question will be for excusing yourselves. Col. Austen. I think we are going to make the king an ill return for his gracious Message. He desires your advice, and you complain that the War was not carried on, &c. and, at the same time, you call yourselves the Great Council of the Nation; and now you will give him none. I would adjourn the debate. Mr. Hawles. You have complained that some men have been put into office, and the king did not know thein, therefore the king desires you should recommend persons to him. I think fit you should answer the king. I do not say all persons should be named in, or out of the house. If you pass a Vote not to recommend persons, you put a disgrace upon persons, as if they wanted integrity, or understanding, whom the house should recommend. There has been but one person recommended, viz. Mr. Johnson, and no notice taken of him in the midst of Preferments. Shall we imply, by such a Vote, that there is no person in the house fit to be trusted? I am against it. Col. Birch. I speak now for fear I shall speak no more. I was never in my life under such thoughts. Now, in great haste, we pass this question; and I think it not sense when it is passed. Those that are for the question see some other way for their own safety than fighting it out to the last. For my part, I think of none. Can there be a lighter way than this? You will see the reason of all that has been done, and it will lead you, I hope, into something better; I am sure it cannot be worse. On a sudden you say, you will recommend nobody, and they will say abroad, Things have been long ill, and now the king offers it to you, you wash your hands of it, and shake hands with the whole.' This cannot be taken well by the king, nor those abroad. This requires an adjourned debate, and a consideration in this great cause two or three days; and I hope, God will direct us. Sir Tho. Clarges. I am for putting the question, for the reasons given against it. When you have done this, I hope you will wash your hands of the other too. This looks like taking the stone out of their foot, and putting it into yours. If those who are our own members be named, and there happen miscarriages, we shall make a faint prosecution of one another; and we shall have another advantage, to revive the ancient usage of parliament, that no man accept of an office, as sheriff, or any employment, without the consent of the house. I have heard of judges, and Attorney-Generals, making apologies for accepting their places till they have had your leave. In the late troubles, the parliament was involved in a great war with king Charles 1; then was made the Self-denying Ordinance, when they were brought low and worsted; they prospered upon it, and, I hope, so shall we, and I am not for adjourning the debate. Mr. Foley. I wonder the house was so forward to give the king Thanks before in a Message. It is impossible the king and kingdom should be safe as long as persons are in council that have sat in king James's council. The Sir Christ. Musgrave. Though I shall not recommend persons, yet I would give what advice we can for carrying on the War; but it was not the advice of your ancestors to recommend persons for the executive part. king's council and generals are fittest, knowing the abilities and qualities of persons. I move for Thanks to the king, &c. and we cannot be safer than in the hands of persons that his majesty shall think fit. The Commons resolve that no Member be put into the Commission for Ireland.] Resolved, "1. That this house doth not think to recommend any Member of this house to be employed in the Service of Ireland, for the purposes expressed in his majesty's gracious Message of Saturday last. 2. That this house doth humbly desire to be excused from recommending any Persons to his majesty to be employed in the Service of Ireland; but humbly leave it to his majesty's great wisdom to nominate fit persons for that Service." Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do acquaint his majesty with the said Resolutions, when he presents the Thanks of the house to his majesty. Dec. 3. The Speaker acquainted the house that he had attended his majesty with the Thanks of the house, and likewise acquainted his majesty with the said Resolutions; who was pleased to return his Answer to this effect : "Gentlemen; I shall take all the care that may be, to carry on the War in Ireland with vigour, and to employ such Persons as may be most proper for the service: and I doubt not but I shall have the assistance of the house of commons to carry it on in such a manner, as may be according to your desires and my Instructions." and Dec. 5. The Commissioners of the Victualling in custody of the serjeant at arms, petitioned the house to be admitted to Bail the house dividing upon the question, it passed in the affirmative. Yeas 117. Nocs 105; on the following terms, viz. That each of them should be bound in 5000l. penalty for his appearance, and find two sureties in 2500l, a piece more. The Quakers exempted from double Taxes.] | Dec. 7. A Clause being reported from the committee on the Supply to be added to the Land-Tax bill, for exempting the Quakers from double Taxes on their subscribing a Declaration of Fidelity to their majesties; the house divided upon the question, and it passed in the affirmative. Yeas 170. Noes 78. Dec. 9. The blanks in the Land-Tax bill of Sums to be appropriated for the use of the Navy, were filled up as follows:-Resolved, That the blank for the sum to be appropriated be filled up with 400,000l. To be thus employed. For paying the Seamen, 200,000l. for providing Victuals, 100,000l. and for providing Stores, 100,000/-The same day, a Clause was proposed to be added to the said Bill, to empower the Commissioners to review the Assessments, and examine upon oath, and if they find any person omitted or under-rated,to reassess them, by such ways and means, and under such penalties as before provided; and the house dividing upon the question, it passed in the affirmative. Yeas 136. Noes 127. Debate on the State of the Nation.] Dec. 14. The house went into a grand committee, on the State of the Nation. Mr. Holt. The honour and safety of the king and kingdom depend on this day's resolution. The Miscarriage of the last year is recommended to your consideration. The present State of the Nation is a state of war; all conclude, that Money is the sinews of war; I fear there have been great embezzlements, and I hope you will enquire into it how it has been issued out. I have heard the Stores are empty, and I believe there is a great want of money, but I observe, there is catching at it. We have appropriated money for the Stores and Yards, &c. but it has been like boys scrambling for nuts, some get three or four, and others none at all. If we appropriate this Money, it seems by that we are jealous, and why should we not enquire? You have been told by an honourable person how little there is, and how much wanting. Mr. Foley. You have ordered the committee, to day, to consider the State of the Nation. I would enquire why Ireland was not relieved in proper time; it was a great mischief. There was a Fleet, and yet Ammunition was slipped from France, and no care of conveying relief to Londonderry; and all came to nothing, till almost all the people perished. It was neglected six months, and those officers that took care of their soldiers in Ireland, did well, but no enquiry into those that took no care. Horses were ready for the Artillery, but they stayed six weeks. As for the Fleet, no part of it but was under great Miscarriages, all in disorder-po care of Convoys for Merchants; they have done nothing to annoy our enemies; where to lay the blame, I cannot tell. As for the ministers, they have done the same things as in Charles 2's time, which makes me think them Pensioners to France still. We are not now in an ordinary case. If this government by any accident should miscarry, we are all like to fall with it, the Protestant Religion, and all. I move, That you will make an humble Representation to the king, that things may be managed more to the satisfaction of his people.' Sir Robert Rich. What is said, gives me occasion to tell you something of my own knowledge. A captain who lived 20 or 30 miles from Londonderry, and who loved the place, had applied to the council of Scotland for the relief of it: they loaded him with meal; he sailed by our fleet, and was brought aboard to give an account why he did go by the fleet without calling, and he must give account to the general; he said, he knew no general.' They caused him to lie there five weeks; he asked them the reason: they told him, 'There was a prodigious boom cross the River, choaked up with sunk vessels, and a battery on the River, with small shot, on each side.' He asked, Whether, in five weeks, any long-boat was sent to view the boom? The boy he sent, who swam in, gave a dismal account of the condition of the town. He was ordered to go up the River, and if he could not get up to the town, to fire his ship, to be useless. The man of war, and two more, stopped short of the Fort; the meal-ship was before. When he was near, he dropped anchor. The anchor drew, and the tide carried the ship's stern athwart the boom; and this dismal boom, only with the weight of this ship, broke in the middle, and no wind at all. I hear not of much punishing, nor much rewarding. This man has lain nine weeks to solicit for his reward for his pains, and no notice is taken of him. Mr. Jephson. I did pay this captain 3001. and more. I think this captain was one Douglas: I think this is the man. Sir Robert Rich. This sum was paid him for the freight of his ship; but for his recompence not one groat. Sir John Guise. I shall speak of one head most natural to this debate, and that is of Money said to be the nerves of war,' the disposal whereof for your safety is to the best advantage. I know not whether it be regular, in a committee, to mention it. Instead of Money given to pay the Army, to have none paid! You must, to do this, state the Accounts of Money and Stores, when the prince of Orange came in, and then what is come in of that you granted, and how disposed of, and the Charge of the next year, whether two millions will do it. Sir John Thompson. I take it for granted, that the Money you gave the last session has answered all the ends then proposed; and they have had more than could be employed. When persons still are in council, who have formerly managed, when there was a great army to enslave us, I can never expect good from such men. I offer you, Whether 50,000 men is not enough? Sir Tho. Clarges. As for Accounts, they are referred to a committee already. When that |