Savior speaks of in my proof-text; but the eternal punishment of which he speaks is not seen in this mortal state.What does any man care for authorities, who, in the face of all this, will contend for a limited duration for the punishment of the wicked in the coming world, or no punishment at all, as is the case with some? Such persons are proof against all authority, all reason, and all argument, and nothing will deliver them from the fearful delusion which has swallowed them up, but the revelation of the Lord Jesus, when ever tongue will be compelled to acknowledge the justice of the ways of God.

The gentleman can make but one effort to avoid the force of this word; and that will be to show that it has been applied in a limited sense; but that can be done with any word in human speech. Even the word endless is used where it does not literally mean endless. Paul speaks of "endless genealogies," where all know that it must be used in a limited sense; but he would be a most stupid critic who would refer to this passage to determine the meaning of the word endless. Even the words perpetual and unlimited are frequently used in a limited sense. The same is true of any word in human speech; and had I been given choice among all the words with which I am acquainted, I could not have found one more expressive of unlimited duration, than eternal and everlasting, or the Greek aionion from which they come. If there is then one word under Heaven that could prove my position, the word applied to the duration of punishment by the Lord himself, will prove it.

"Him

In looking over the single book of Revelations, you will find the words forever and ever to occur thirteen times. Of this number the expression is five times applied to the life of Christ, and the life of God, in the following manner : that liveth forever and ever." Once it is applied to the reign of the saints with Christ, as follows: "And they shall reign forever and ever." Three times this expression is applied to the praises of God as follows: "Blessing and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God, forever and ever.” Once it is applied to the reign of Christ, as follows: "And he shall reign forever and ever." Now beyond all dispute, this expression is applied to that which is of endless duration, in

each of the ten places to which I have referred, and the words forever and ever are used to express that duration, and can mean nothing else in those passages.

Once this expression is applied to the beast and the false prophet, whom the Divine Spirit declared, "shall be tormented day and night, forever and ever." Another occurrence of this expression you will find in the following: "And after these things, I heard a great voice of much people in Heaven, saying, Allelluia; salvation, and glory, and honor, and power unto the Lord our God; for true and righteous are his judgments, for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hast avenged the blood of his servants at her hands. Again they said, Alleluia and her smoke rose up forever and ever." This expression also occurs at the close of the following wonderful language of the Holy Book: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God; which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in presence of the Lamb; and the smoke of their torment ascended forever and ever."

:

Now when we read of "Him that liveth forever and ever," no one doubts but the import is, Him whose life is of unlimited duration." When the same expression is applied to the praises of God, and to the reign of the saints with Christ, no one doubts but it expresses perpetual duration. I ask then, in the name of all reason, and in view of the grand solemnities of the Book concerning which I speak, after admiting that this expression means unlimited, in ten places out of the only thirteen which it has in this book, by what authority does any man say, that the other three occurrencies have a different signification? Certainly nothing was ever more arbitrary, than to admit the unlimited duration expressed by this phrase in ten places, and then, in the same book, from the same pen, deny the same duration as expressed by the same words. No one but a most perfect tyrant, could thus force and torture the same words, from the pen of the same writer. in the same book, in reference to the same state, to mean of unlimited duration in ten places, and to mean of limited duration in the remaining three; when no such thing is im plied in the text or context, either prefixed or affixed.

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Now, I ask the gentleman, what language the Almighty could have used, that would express endless punishment, if that which I have produced does not? If men may be in danger of eternal damnation," "go into everlasting punishment," and be "tormented day and night forever and ever," "where the worm dieth not and and the fire is not quenched," and not suffer endless punishment; then, indeed, there is no language under Heaven that can prove endless punishment.

The gentleman has expressed a great desire to get into the merits of the question, touching the duration of punishment; but I expect to see him now ramble all over the creation, and have more to say about every thing else than the passages I have introduced. Will he refer to any lexicons to get the definitions of the words I have relied upon? We shall see.

But you need not expect him to be convinced, for he now declares, that if my position is true, God is the author of infinite evil, he charges it upon God, and he now says, "I could not love such a being if I would, and I tell you more, I would not if I could." Convince such a man! In the sacred name of reason, how would you convince him? He would despise the Almighty Jehovah, should he be compelled to admit that he decides against him; and if he should find he is mistaken, he decides now, that he will hate God forThis shows how much regard he has for the wisdom [Time expired.]

ever.

of God.

MR. MANFORD'S THIRD SPEECH.

MY FRIENDS:

Mr. Franklin commences his last speech with his old song, about my being angry, or in a bad humor! The gentleman has made himself extremely ridiculous on this subject; indeed he is quite childish!--and one would think that he ought, by this time, to be ashamed of himself! but no; like some little boy who is determined to have the last word-"if you were not angry, you acted like you were--if you were in a good humor, I should hate to see you in a bad humor!" It must be apparent to you all, my friends, that he resorts to this course, when he has nothing else to say-a kind of hobby, when he finds himself used up. You may set it down as a matter of fact then, that whenever he gets to talking about my being angry, he is in a bad predicament, and don't know what else to say!

My friends, I am in no trouble about "dividing or subdivid ing the proposition." We agreed to debate a certain proposition, viz: endless punishment; and he may "divide and subdivide," and raise as many other questions as he pleases, one thing is certain, he cannot draw me away from the question I agreed to discuss. He may take whatever course he pleases; all I have to say is-I shall not reply to any thing that does not bear directly upon the proposition.

He misrepresents me, and says that which he knows to be false, when he says that I " appear to be satisfied that the wicked will be punished after death." He knows I believe in no such thing! But punishment after death is not the question between us, and therefore I do not choose to discuss it.

He is guilty of an equally base and wilful misrepresentation, when he represents me as saying there is "nothing at stake," if Universalism be true! I said, and I say again, that there is nothing at stake if Universalism be true, in comparison with what there is at stake, if endless punishment be true.-And there being so much at stake--indeed a whole eternity-if the latter doctrine be true, I argued that it could not be

true, from the fact that but a small portion of the world knows any thing about it. Such a palpable misrepresentation does not speak very well either for a man's head or heart!

But he says, "God has given just such warning"--“Our Lord speaks of eternal punishment, and eternal damnation." True enough; and now admitting, for the sake of the argument, that the New Testament teaches the doctrine of endless punishment, how many I ask, know anything about the New Testament?-how many, in comparison with the whole world, know anything of the gospel? Admit all the gentleman asks for, and it does not meet my argument, by a thousand miles! So I repeat that if the doctrine of endless punishment were true, a doctrine in which there would be so much at stake, God would have taken measures to have made the fact known to the world-to the whole world--and in a way too, that all would have known it long ago. The presumption is, therefore, that the doctrine is not true!

Mr. Franklin still holds on to the idea that the "kingdom of God" means heaven! And although I showed positively in my last that if the "kingdom of God," and "kingdom of heaven," mean heaven, then the wicked go to heaven; for we read of the wicked being "thrust out" of the kingdom"-of gathering "out of his kingdom" things "that offend"-of "the children of the kingdom" being "cast out," and of "the kingdom of heaven" gathering of "every kind;" yet notwithstanding all this, he thinks I failed to prove the fact, because in the passage he quoted, the Savior speaks of their "standing without," and knocking at the door for entrance! Now in this very same passage, where they are represented as "standing without," (Luke xiii, 24-28) the Savior winds up by saying "and you yourselves thrust out." Thrust out of what? Why out of the kingdom of God-consequently they must have been in the kingdom.

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But in regard to the other passages which I read, the gentleman allows they refer to the church. He says, "the church is sometimes called the kingdom, and sometimes kingdom means heaven itself, as in this passage--Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.' True enough in this passage, I admit that "kingdom of God" means heaven; and I now challenge Mr. Franklin to find another place in the New Testament where either "kingdom," "kingdom of heaven," or "kingdom of God," means the immortal state! Let him do so if he can, or forever hold his peace.