"Answer: An exception doth not make void a rule; especially such a one as is not founded on a jus Divinum, and where it is in the power of those who make the rule to grant a forbearance from it. The Reformed Churches grant a forbearance, and yet their general rule stands. And we, in our Desires, do submit to this Honourable Committee to find out such ways as may best stand with the peace of the kingdom.

"To the fourth Reason:

The indulgence they seek, is a greater privilege than they shall enjoy who shall be under the Rule; as may appear in several particulars: 1. Such as own the Rule, must live in the same parish with the other members of their church. These [other] may live anywhere, and be of any church they please; yea, though a church of their own way were in the place where they live. 2. If such, as live under the Rule, would better themselves in living under the pastoral charge of another minister, they must remove their dwelling: these [other] need not.'

"Answer: The privilege of those ministers, who submit to the Rule, is, to be capable of all ecclesiastical preferments;' which we are not. They find no need of indulgence to their consciences, as touching the Rule established, which we do. Possibly their consciences may be scrupled in the same or other things hereafter; and [then] they [mnight] have the privilege of the same addresses for relief we [now] have! And as for the two particulars therein expressed [in their fourth Reason,] we say first, It is a privilege, and much to be desired, to dwell near together; and we also, shall endeavour it as much as may be, for mutual edification: secondly, It is the right of every man, we humbly conceive, to choose his own minister; whereas the parishes and their bounds by dwellings are but of Civil right, provided the State be pleased to take some order, that it may be known whither every man doth resort.

"To the fifth Reason:

This would give countenance to a perpetual schism and division in the Church; still [ever] drawing away some from the churches under the Rule: which also,

6

"An 'exception' may be of so great a latitude as by consequence and virtually, it may void' the rule: and of that nature we conceive this exception which our Brethren desire; for it doth actually evacuate it to all.. of their judgment;.. which we have cause to fear, if once tolerated, will be no small number!.. Whether the 'rule' be 'founded on a jus Divinum,' or not? is not our question: though if we would speak ad hominem.. our Brethren's principles would not allow them to agree in most things.. if there were no Divine right,' in their judgment, to found the rule,' in those particulars, upon. But we find our Brethren very willing to insist on and wind in that notion on every occasion. We will not busy our thoughts in conjecturing the reasons of it... Nor is it our question, Whether they who make a' rule' may not grant a 'forbearance:' but, Whether a forbearance' may not.. disannul the rule?.. We think our Brethren cannot find many Reformed Churches' that tolerate Separation at all; nor any one that doth it in so unlimited a manner [as they desire], and that not by connivance only but by a law." P. 62, 63.

b"We speak of the privileges of the people; they understand us as if we meant ministers.".. P. 64.

e".. That it is the right of every man, to choose his own minister,'.. we will not dispute, but certainly some would deny; and it will be like [ly] to breed much confasion, and render that extreme[ly] difficult if not altogether impossible, which they propound as the only remedy for the magistrate... But granting this assertion;.. then,.. they shall enjoy their 'right' absolutely; which those who are under the Rule cannot do without removing their dwellings.'" P. 64, 65.

would breed many irritations between the parties going away and those whom they leave; and again, between the church that should be forsaken and that to which they should [happen to go :'

"We answer, 1. What hurt the abuse of words and, among others, this of schism' hath done in the churches, our Brethren know, and we all have felt! Wherefore, seeing as yet the Assembly hath not debated, nor the State determined, What Schism is? we desire our Brethren that, in the seeking to countenance that way which they think is right, they would not seek to cast an odium upon their Brethren who differ from them,—and yet together with them desire, in faithfulness, to know and obey the mind of Christ,-by fastening such a name upon them or their way." 2. What we desire Forbearance in will countenance only this, When men, who give good testimony of their godliness and peaceableness, after all means used, in faithfulness, to know the mind of Christ, they, yet cannot, without sin to them, enjoy all the ordinances of Christ, and partake in all the duties of worship as members of that congregation where their dwelling is, [that] they therefore, in humility and meekness, desire they may not live without ordinances; but [that] for the enjoyment of them for their edification in their spiritual good, [they] may join in another Congregation: yet so as not condemning those churches they join not with, as false;' but still preserving all christian communion with the saints of the same body of Christ,-of the Church catholic, and join [ing] with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular churches, so far as they are able. If this be called schism,' or countenance' of schism, it is more than yet we have learned from the Scriptures, or any approved authors. 3. And as for that irritation' our Brethren speak of; as

a "Had the word 'schism' been left out, the [our] reason would have remained strong.. and yet to that.. they offer no answer at all, but fastening on this word schism' labour to divert the odium thereof; which yet in the origiual sense thereof, differs no more from division' than Greek from Latin in expressing the same thing. That the abuse of words' hath done much hurt, we willingly grant; but that may be as well by calling evil good, as by calling good evil : . . so we desire [our Brethren] that by assuming the name of tenderness of conscience' to their dissenting from the Rule, or of a 'church-way' or 'church-order,' to their way and godly party, they would not reflect 'an odium' upon us, or the churches under the Rule. And although the Assembly' have not debated, nor the State determined'.. any otherwise than the declaring of what is rectum is the declaring of that which is obliquum, yet both have covenanted to endeavour the extirpation of schism,' and so are bound to give no countenance' unto any just [!] occasion thereof. And, however the Government which the Assembly hath advised, and the State already, in part, established, hath had a sufficient load of odium' and aspersions cast upon it by some who would, thereby, gain reputation to their own 'way' in so doing; yet we conceive both unworthy to seek countenance' unto that which we think right,' by casting 'odium' on our Brethren who'differ' from us, and yet together with us desire, in faithfulness, to know and obey the mind of Christ.'"..P. 65, 66.

b"To show the justness of this desire' of theirs, they first put a case, and then conclude, 'If this be called 'schism,' etc.'.. The putting of cases is a usual way of slipping out from the force of a reason when no other answer can be given. And we desire' our Brethren to give us their judgment upon their own case propounded, as the face of it may be shown in another glass! Suppose, some members of their own Congregations have such scruples as that they cannot, without sin to them, enjoy all the ordinances of Christ, etc.;'.. are these divisions and sub

we humbly conceive, it will be according to the temper of men's hearts if such a practice meet with men whose hearts are gracious, it will only irritate them to search further into the mind of Christ, and to walk before their brethren with more exactness; and to exercise love, meekness, and forbearance, towards their brethren who differ from them; and such irritation' there is no great cause that either we or our Brethren should make complaints of: if this liberty meet with corruption, it is like enough there may, accidentally, be an irritation' to sin; but the way, then, to oppose such corruption is by instruction, prayer, walking convincingly before them; and if they grow turbulent, to call in the help of the Civil magistrate; but not to give that respect to their corruptions, as to deny to men who give undeniable testimony of their godliness that use of the ordinances of Christ that they may, with the peace of their consciences, enjoy.

divisions as lawful as they may be infinite? or, must we give that respect to the error of men's consciences, as to satisfy their scruples by allowance of this liberty to them?.. Doth it not plainly signify, that error of conscience is a protection against schism?.. We shall not mind our Brethren how testimonies of godliness' are not always infallible protections against schism or heresy, lest it should be judged a casting of 'odium'!.. Who shall keep the door of this Forbearance,' being once set open, to prevent the entrance of such as are not in this manner qualified?.. And.. the Toleration may become a sanctuary for such [members] of our churches to flee unto at pleasure, from the government, upon such ends as are not at all conscientious, but corrupt. We therefore conceive it necessary, for preventing manifold inconveniences, that amongst all other means used in faithfulness, this be one, That each person give account of his scruples to the eldership, or congregation, where he dwells, that so he may either receive satisfaction, or have, from them, a testimony of godliness and peaceableness!'. . We shall be glad to hear, from our Brethren, that they can be 'members' of that congregation where their dwelling is if otherwise, to say they cannot partake in all,' or enjoy all;' is but concealedly spoken... This desire,' of joining in another congregation,' is but petitio principii, and no answer to our reason against it... The not condemning' our churches as false' doth little extenuate the separation; for divers of the Brownists'.. in former times separating, is a tacit and practical 'condemning' of our churches, if not 'false' yet as impure, eousque as that, in such administrations, they cannot be, by them, as members,' communicated with 'without sin!.. We do not find our Brethren willing to have communion with the saints' as 'members' of our congregations, but as members of the Church catholic;' which is as full a declining of 'communion' with us, as churches, as if we were 'false' churches. And whereas our Brethren say that the Forbearance' they desire will countenance only this,'-which is speciously represented with all favourable circumstances in the case, we conceive, under favour, that the 'desire' of theirs, in [this] their second proposition, goes somewhat further:.. it is one thing, for a scrupulous conscience to have liberty to join in another congregation ;' . . and another thing, to have liberty to be active, and to gather members out of our churches, as is implied in the desire.'. . The Brethren having framed a case.. conclude thus, 'If this be called schism, etc.'.. we conceive the causes of separation must be shown to be such as ex natura rei will bear it out; which hath not yet been done; .. and therefore we say that the granting the liberty desired, will give countenance' to 'schism.'. . And we desire' our Brethren to show out of 'Scriptures' and approved authors,' what they have learned concerning schism: . . we conceive, that it is the cause of the separation from communion, which gives both name and nature to schism." P, 67–74.

"We know no evil which may not be excused by such a dilemma as this." .. P. 75.

This liberty meets with more whose corruptions' are too strong for their graces, than whose graces do make only good use thereof... The trouble of the

"To the sixth Reason:

This would introduce all manner of confusion in families, where the members were of several churches; and exceedingly, if not altogether, hinder the mutual edification that might be afforded and received amongst them: and 'specially in great families, it would be impossible for the governors to have a sure account of all their family's attending upon the ordinances, when twenty of them may, possibly, be of twenty several churches; and much less take account of their profiting by the ordinances.'

"Answer: i. In general, our judgments do thus far agree with yours, that, except upon very weighty considerations, husband and wife, masters and servants, should partake together in the same ministry. ii. If it should happen to be otherwise, 1. all manner of confusion' would not hereby be introduced into families': for, can our Brethren think that persons, agreeing in all the fundamentals of their faith, and in their judgment and practice joining in all the same duties of piety, in the family, and also agreeing in the same duties of public worship, for the substance, though not living under the same individual ministry; yet [that] unless they do agree also, in a Uniformity, both public and private, they must needs run into all manner' of confusions? Hath either nature or the Gospel put such a necessity upon uniformity in lesser things, to keep families' from confusion? If this were the Gospel, then, except it prevail upon the opinion of those whom it converts to such a uniformity,-which it seldom doth,-it must, by this principle, of necessity subvert human society by bringing confusion' into families, which we conceive to be a great derogation to [from] the Gospel. 2. Neither would it exceedingly', much less altogether", hinder the mutual edification that might be afforded and received amongst them.' For, first, although persons of the same family not living under the same ministry may, in some respect of family duties, not so fully edify as otherwise; yet in a great measure they may: and 'Magistrate' is not likely to be so great in taking away the fuel as in coming always in to pour water upon the fire when it breaks out! And as to that which they say, that such 'respect' is not to be given to mens' 'corruptions, as to deny, &c.': this implication is scandalous... We may have respect' to men's corruptions so far as to prevent the 'irritation' of them... It is our earnest desire and prayer, that our brethren might enjoy' the ordinances with the peace of their consciences:'.. or, that they would rather deny themselves of their full liberty in every point, than redeem it at the price of so much danger and disquiet to the churches of God." P. 75-77.

a "We take what they grant us; and cannot but think it strange.. there should yet be such weighty considerations' behind,-though they call the difference betwixt us 'lesser' matters,-as to.. ground an allowance for wife, child, servant, to withdraw from that authority which the master of the family hath, to rule and oversee them in religious duties." P. 77.

b"It is not the mere want of uniformity,' as our brethren would infer, which doth necessitate this; but such a positive difformity in opinion and practice as that they who live together and lie in the bosom of one another cannot-which is more than simply do not-serve God together in public; but divide asunder not unto a several ministry only, but-which is much more dangerous-unto a separated ministry:.. it is impossible for a family thus contrarily.. instructed, to join together in mutual edification at home without confusion... The very several contributions unto the maintenance of several ministers, may not only be a burden to the state of a man but much more to his mind, when, being persuaded his wife or children are in a sin of separation from him, he must yet be at charges to allow them therein.". . P. 78, 79.

if there be a zeal and good conscience, in any of the family, to be helpful in good conference, etc., it is no such great hinderance to hear, in several places, or several preachers,-as scholars, reading several books, and then conferring! Many good Christians have, for edification, purposely practised it; and it hath some advantages for edification,' which the other way hath not." Secondly; that further degree of 'edification' which comes to the persons in a family by going all to the same ministry, amounts not to that proportion as to countervail the want of enjoying the public ordinances' for ever; which, compared with family duties, simply considered, have had the pre-eminence, both in respect to God's glory and the edification of souls, in all men's consciences: which [public ordinances] cannot [respectively] be enjoyed by many, that yet are truly conscientious, except the liberty petitioned [for] be granted. iii. For the account' governors in great families' are to take of‘all,' in their family's attending upon the ordinances, and of their profiting' thereby: we answer, The churches we desire being constant and fixed, it is no more 'impossible' than it was for a godly tutor in the University to take account of his pupils, having liberty to go to several churches." And, iv. Whereas it is heightened that twenty' of one family may, possibly, be of twenty several churches'; we suppose, if the State be pleased to grant us the liberty we petition for, that they in their wisdom, to which we have referred ourselves, will take into consideration the limiting such Congregations to a certain number; and, then, there may not be 'twenty churches,' in any city or town, to divide themselves into !a

"But the truth is, those that thus plead against this permission which we desire, as insufferable, must certainly suppose that men are to be tied throughout this kingdom to their own parish' churches where they live, both masters and servants; and that, not only for sacraments but for constant hearing: which, how burdensome it was in

a "Our brethren grant that this course hindereth such full 'edification,' in 'some respect,' as might otherwise be had; and surely this 'some respect' is a very great one!.. 'Scholars' may better profit by 'conferring' their observations out of ‘several books' than ordinary people by bringing broken, and, it may be, mistaken and incoherent notes from 'several' sermons... And though some in the family may have 'zeal and good conscience' to help the rest, yet what will this avail those whose understandings and memories being weak have none to improve and further them in the things which they heard themselves?.. Our brethren do confess that there is a further degree of 'edification'. . by going all to the same ministry.''

P. 80, 81.

"What ordinances' must our Brethren' want for ever'?.. We confess [that] to 'family duties, simply considered,' 'public ordinances' are to be preferred. But if one must be lost for the other, we think that which is causa per se of such an inconvenience,-to wit, such a separation,-is even eo nomine unjust." P. 81, 82.

"What time will there be for receiving an account of so many sermons? Add hereunto the different hours of going and returning, which may exceedingly hinder family duties; none of which inconveniences will be remedied by the fixedness of the separated churches." P. 82.

"We know not how the principles and grounds of our Brethren's desire can allow them to rest in any set number [of 'churches'] if they prove too few for such multitudes as they may gather out of our churches into them; for their petition being indefinite for multitudes of persons, cannot be well definite for number of places, or Congregations!". . P. 83.